"Levels don't matter"

[Ebok]

Part 3: Solutions?

The very first thing you must do if you want to solve any problem is to determine what the problem is. Every game creates a number of ways to play the game successfully. If you want to see how to play efu, look at the most common behavior seen on efu. Typical Behavior is the net result of the environment in which the behavior can be found.

Therefore, in order to find a solution to any overarching problem which may or may not exist, you must first ask yourself: What could be done that would change the environment of the game in ways which enforce the behavior which you want to see, and hinder the behavior which you don't.

If you've read Part 2, you'll know I've broken EFU down as the simultaneous mixture of two games, Narrative and Adventure. Those who play one side better then the other will find they hit a glass ceiling at some point.
[INDENT]Narrative games require everyone to be playing in the narrative, hopefully with about the same dedication and understanding of the story. They have no real end, but are instead a fluid story that is breath life into the game world. Here your story is successful when you get cut down by your long rival, or beaten to your goal, or achieve your goal however briefly. It is the telling of one character, however, in EFU this requires that the character die within a reasonable time-frame. Otherwise you out live your own narrative, your faction, or your goals. Since these requires and grows involving MANY people, it takes MOST of those people to make the story heartfelt and awesome.
[/INDENT][INDENT]Adventure gamers require a way a WIN. In the old days we had impossible Mort dungeons that could be tried, or we could attempt to escape from the underdark for real. There was a trophy of sorts for beating either, and a pat on the back and a sense of accomplishment for attempting either. Knowing those that the true pinnacle of the adventure. The End.
[/INDENT]The Solution to EFU is to determine first if we have a balance between these two types of games. When one gets stronger then the other, you will find discontentment between those of the various games and positions therein (both DMs and Players can be found within these ranges).

[Howlando]

Thanks for your post Ebok, nicely written.

[RuinedDesires]

Ebok has touched on something here of great note.

I do both things, story and adventure. Yet when my story is told, I dont want to be lame and simple end myself without meaning. I also love adventure, pvp, fighting for goals that effect the server, yet sometimes your just too powerful, have too many friends or not enough enemies to do those things.

For the Adventurer

Implementing ways to win EFU, like the old way of escaping the UD, or impossible quests like fighting Dragons/ Dungeon crawls notorious for slaughtering groups of high level adventurers, is for me, a good thing.

Something that, if you succeed at you can retire your pc, or even become infamous for merely attempting it. I still think Canzah was insane yet brilliant for attempting to fight a dragon. Its something I imagine he looks back on and enjoys having attempted!



For the Story Teller

Finding ways for characters to reach a successful point in their tale, a reward that is long lasting and can create a feeling of nostalgia. It can be as simple as a small character reference on the server. An npc months down the line speaking your characters name can cause you to instantly relive some of the most epic moments.

Finding remnants of your character can also help! I have had characters ig go around asking about one of my most successful pc's on the server. I later discovered why and that instantly inspired me to create a better story, to involve more people and succeed where I believe my character failed.


In the end, I think it boils down to this. We all want to achieve something, I always aim to effect the server to change ic aspects in some way. Knowing that those attempts are recognized and remembered are what make EFU enjoyable for me.

[The Beggar]

Beggar says: [Insert Ebok Posts here]

And Howland - the flaws you mention are not major, and vastly outweighed by the story and lore of the server. Nice job to you and all the DMs - especially in the new player intro / quest arc. It's short, integrates a lot of vital lore, and is new guy friendly - you hit the trifecta of game design IMO in that part.

Suggestion - Possibly turn this to some of the quests, integrating a more solid story or lore arc through sequential quests. I'm not talking about "you must finish quest X to get to Y", Just merely hints of lore or story in quest X, that may lead you to more story / lore (building on it) in Quest Y. Server does this in a few cases, but it could get tightened up - providing added color while questing.

[Ebok]

Suggestion - Possibly turn this to some of the quests, integrating a more solid story or lore arc through sequential quests. I'm not talking about "you must finish quest X to get to Y", Just merely hints of lore or story in quest X, that may lead you to more story / lore (building on it) in Quest Y. Server does this in a few cases, but it could get tightened up - providing added color while questing.

Or provide clues as random drops or other such things which can be collected, or used in ways that unlock something small or cool lore wise OUTSIDE of a quest.

Maybe you're collecting pieces of a map that randomly drop on a series of quests. Each have something small and interesting on them, and when you've all of them, you are given a riddle. Solve the riddle takes you to a place somewhere on the island. And the map allows access to some site of importance to the stories lore. Doesnt have to be something game changing, but small and quaint. A treasure for real treasure hunters. Or an ancient book for real lore keepers.

Its actually very hard to learn the coolest parts of the lore. And these are another MAJOR reward for PLAYERS who want to discover the truths about the server. It could be interesting if in this way, the more memorable characters can leave an afterimage of their greatest and most secret of successes.

We have a lot of awesome lore hidden around. But its nearly impossible to hit dc 50 >_>;

[Weaverific]

I think I lucked out in joining EFU, in that, I joined with JUST enough time to experience the dominion and then see it all fall apart.

The struggle to stay alive and keep fighting against insane, impossible odds, was amazing and still has me raving about it.

I never got to experience an escape from the under dark but I wish I did.  Adding something like that to EFU V3 would be great.  How about rumors of the Water of Life or some other sort of cure to the withering on one of the islands... which people go to, but from which, they never return, even if they succeed?  Put a leader board in the character creation area as a testament to those who succeeded.

[9lives]

the escape was good because it was thematically central

what u list isnt

[NecropolisV]

I'm just going to list some suggestions :P I know I haven't been here as long as some to experience everything but I'd say that playing for almost a year has given me time to experience enough to put out some.

1) Give out more xp that you usually do. I was in a party with perhaps a little stronger pcs than me with my spellcaster in a tough quest, on its own I expected to die, or have slim chances of making it through without some heavy loss. However a DM spiced it to be a challenge for those tougher warrior pcs and i got demolished. I knew well that my chances of survival were slim, but for the sake of adventure and going out of my normal quest bashing to get levels so I could do that without big risk I decided to go, because I'd never done it before. My character went from 7th to 4th. and in the end I got some ok loot and 500 xp... i retired that pc shortly after in a ragequit.

2) We all get upset when we lose of course because the loss is immense. That fear rather than making us more careful simply scares us from taking those risks in the first place. If you lessen the loss then people will fear less and take those risks more. I'm not saying lessen it to the point where its no longer something to fear, but rather lessen it up enough so people don't get pissed and quit, or simply decide not to take that risk ever again even when they are higher level because they know well that their loss now is even greater than when they were lower.

3) Up the xp tick reward system. I like this because personally I know that reaching 7th lvl is a milestone... at that point people start thinking about what they can do, rather than what they have to do, more into what they could do. And when they try to do what they fantasize they sometimes face the penalty's of trying and end up beginning 6th or 5th. Yes you should pay the price for your risk, but the fact that they took that risk and only got punished is disheartening, and can be a real bummer because you tried stepping out of that grinding area into some serious rp and ended up getting knocked back down into it. Now you are trying to get back to that good feeling of achievement to take yet another risk, but find it gets harder and more disheartening each failure.

And my opinion on some things:

 Starting higher level I think would rather not solve problems but make more problems.. Why? Because say you make a character who starts at 7th or 8th lvl.. then you die and are now a lot lower level! Why continue that pc when you can make a newer pc that will be stronger and have the capability to get stronger rather than spending all that time getting back  to that point with your now weakened pc.

 "Make a new pc start fresh with a new concept" Well... then you are put exactly back where you are with your current pc: Grinding quests to get stronger, doing the same ol same ol, which gets boring and depressing. i RP with Serena all the time and I love her concept, Personally I don't mind having to grind but it does get a little old after a while. Me; I struggle to reach 7th. Getting above 6th is something i rarely achieve and when I do I die because i took a risk to get more fun and end up rarely reaching that point again. It's fun, but only to a point; then it gets old, and you don't want to give up your current awesome concept that simply failed because they can't do anything overly significant without the power to resist the enemies that come from attempting to reach your goals. There will always be opposition to an idea, and unless your strong enough to stand a chance against your opposition you will never achieve that idea.

This is just how I experience it... im thinking from the complaints i read and share that im not the only one sorry if im wrong

[MrGrendel]

What if the -10 "bleeding out" buffer were increased? Might give more of a margin of error to people doing less than optimized things and increase the value of buddies that watch out for you.

Also, what if experience loss from respawn deaths were not taken from the character, but added to a sort of penalty bank... which you have to pay off before you can actually gain xp again?

You tell the respawn script, "I'm not dead! I'm just knocked out with a serious injury! Let me go back." And you do, but in the meantime, enjoy a recovery penalty of being forced into limping around slowly after getting mangled by wargs, or miscasting spells due to head injuries after a game of ogre badminton, or dropping weapons now and then because a lightning bolt jacked up the nerves in their sword arm, etc. Or a bog standard -2 to everything will do if you like things boring.

Overall experience gain rate should slow down. Lower levels afaik see a faster rate of xp gain, esp. as the danger and xp loss per further death is much higher at higher levels. On the other hand, average level (but not highest level) would increase by a degree, and characters will not be weakened nearly as much through PvE deaths, depending of course on the degree of injury penalties.

Players could level up to the point that they start dying regularly on quests, rather than bouncing down and back up in levels. The price you pay is being stuck with a potentially crippling injury of some sort on the character for some or all of the time, depending on how it is set to wear off.

DMs would also have an additional tool in the option to reward players against their penalty bank, whether it has anything in it or not, allowing immediate or future recovery from PvE death, while not immediately increasing said character's level and power.

Or, they could choose to directly increase the xp and level of a character who constantly dies on quests, allowing him to skirt around quest ineptitude, so to speak, even while he still has a massive penalty bank built up.

Another facet of this is the potential to let the healing skill or quite high level healing spells temporarily relieve the effects of certain injuries in some way. Splints, poultices...

Naturally, PvP would be entirely unaffected.



I dunno, might be entirely ridiculous, too.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

That option of recovery penalty is interesting. It halts advancement since you still need to recover that 1/3 xp. Neat idea.

[Gippy]

Re- Erraamion
 
2) DM events that are not survivable for anyone but the most optimized and best-supplied PCs.
 
-- This is a chicken and the egg scenario. DM events are hard because players -so- often feel the need to invite their un-faction aligned OR random level 10 hanger on quest buddy to 'make the quest easier/' Very few DM quests in EFU are not tailored to the party that takes them. Nobody will be penalized for taking just their faction on a quest + close allies so long as that number comes to about 4-6.
 
This I am fairly confident about.
 
As for PvP -- my greatest victories have always been on like low level wizards spamming trinkets. The prevalence of flash healing means that a concerted group of four people can take down pretty much any super powered PC in the game. It's just how it is. (Having played more than my fair share of incredibly powerful PCs, I am well aware of their weaknesses.)
 
So many of the problems in this thread are based on the -belief- that high levels are needed, when they are not. That there is a grind, sure, I have felt that. Getting to level 8 is sometimes a chore. However, getting there, and not arriving out of the blue at level 8 is a big part of EFU. The humility of grovelling around in bad gear and sucking while high level people ignore my PCs is how I choose my enemies!

[Vlaid]

At the risk of repeating myself...

My only real problem with the death system is how that brutal DM quest/random chain of deaths can cause a massive drop in levels/relative power. It can lead to an overpowering demoralization to the players/faction (especially for small ones) whom are involved in conflict with a high probability of leading to PVP....you may have seen this in many players who powerquest to L8-10 and only then begin their conflict schemes and simply try not to quest anymore beyond that point. It can also sometimes lead to EXTREMELY dissatisfying ends to characters when your enemies find out you're no longer a level 10 badass and are only a level 5-7 mediocre guy at the moment.

If not for those sudden and massive drops in relative power from forced respawns (lets be honest nobody wants to sit in fugue for an entire DM quest waiting for the party to drag their corpse back to town....and there is a certain OOC pressure to just respawn and get back in the action) I wouldn't mind the death system that much.

[The Old Hack]

Re- Erraamion
 
2) DM events that are not survivable for anyone but the most optimized and best-supplied PCs.
 
-- This is a chicken and the egg scenario. DM events are hard because players -so- often feel the need to invite their un-faction aligned OR random level 10 hanger on quest buddy to 'make the quest easier/' Very few DM quests in EFU are not tailored to the party that takes them. Nobody will be penalized for taking just their faction on a quest + close allies so long as that number comes to about 4-6.
 
This I am fairly confident about.

This is my exact experience in these things. The smaller quest groups, especially the ones that move with some caution and think about what they are doing, tend to face difficult but not unreasonable opposition. I have on occasion faced enemies my character was powerless to affect even on these but 1) had normally been warned in advance that the quest would be VERY hard and 2) could still help out by healing and assisting the people who could hurt the enemy.

It is the quest groups that consist of huge mobs of random people joining together that face the toughest going. I admit that I by now actively try to avoid those and usually it is not hard to find a good reason to do so. Just the presence of one or two characters that you are ICly opposed to is reason enough for me.

 

As for PvP -- my greatest victories have always been on like low level wizards spamming trinkets. The prevalence of flash healing means that a concerted group of four people can take down pretty much any super powered PC in the game. It's just how it is. (Having played more than my fair share of incredibly powerful PCs, I am well aware of their weaknesses.)

The 'concerted' bit is very important here but when it is present even the toughest may find themselves in trouble. A high level character will slaughter opposition if it is running around like headless chickens. That same high level, if spammed with dispels from the characters it is not pursuing and its target being helped with heals, will soon find itself spending a lot of healing and potions just to keep on an even keel during the fight.

The problem gets drastically worse when we are talking about teams of high levels operating as gank squads. In that case, the only thing to do is evade, avoid and plan for vengeance when you have the odds more in your favour.

So many of the problems in this thread are based on the -belief- that high levels are needed, when they are not. That there is a grind, sure, I have felt that. Getting to level 8 is sometimes a chore. However, getting there, and not arriving out of the blue at level 8 is a big part of EFU. The humility of grovelling around in bad gear and sucking while high level people ignore my PCs is how I choose my enemies!

There is a lot of truth to the latter part there. High level characters acting like power is all that matters and who trample others just because they can make such lovely targets. On the other hand, I've always found myself respecting high levels who actually pay attention to people around them and who respond fairly according to their IC nature. (It may be a bit optimistic to expect that powerful Banite to act politely and helpfully, for example, though they might respond to judicious flattery and toadying!)

~tOH.

[Random_White_Guy]

Just wanted to apologize again for the rageyness of the post haha. While I hate the grind and it was an obvious rage post, this was the wrong way to try and start this discussion.

That said some of the suggestions have been really cool! Neat to see how folks think the problem can be solved.

[Kinslayer988]

I find it apalling how people believe levels and questing are the only way to make a successful character. To this I will provide a reason against this opinion, and a reason for the opinion.

1. The tale of Ellias Peruglia (monstrous PCs in general): My first monster/pvp survivalist PC, at the level of 3 died against a lv8/9 with DM loot. He was hit by a missile storm, no chance to run or heal. This is a time where levels mattered. Due to not being high enough of a level to run/survive he was dragged to mistlocke square and killed.
That was when levels mattered.

2. The tale of Mylo Aerensen: I made him with 1 singular purpose to prove that levels did not matter and you could handle conflict without them. And what an adventure it twas! Every day I was out telling fortunes, I made hidden sponsorship agreements, was an ass to Caermyn, joined in the hiding of Rani, I even wrote a play (a wretched one however). Thid is an example of what you can do without the quest train, how you can interact with other players and join their story.

Levels only matter depending on what you play. Levels only matter if you are a quester or pvp fanatic. If you hate the grind, make a character who doesnt need the grind.