"Levels don't matter"

Started by Random_White_Guy, January 01, 2013, 11:28:11 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Jasede

I can think of a lot more fun things to do for a DM rather than having to read dozens of applications just so someone can level to level 7, 8 or 9, The Old Hack.

For example using the click kill button. That's infinitely more entertaining and probably a better use of time.

Cerberus

Quote from: Sternhund;319747I skipped reading all the long posts so I might have missed a few suggestions.

I like the constructive criticism provided in the original post, but I am curious about suggestions on how to potentially fix the grind. I did a few minutes of brainstorming and am struggling to find an elegant way of going about it in NWN. If someone can break it down into a palatable form (not wall-of-text) I think that would be awesome. :)

[EDIT] Bullet points, twitter-length suggestions, or tl;dr's would be great

To stop the quest grind:
No xp/level loss... How about a constitution point loss instead? Where you lose no levels. You can still play at your highest attained level ability. Diamonds, candles and whatnot are used to gain the lost con points back. this would also eliminate the died 99 times PC's as eventually your PC would have a 3 or less con and not be able to be resurrected from the Fugue at all. It would also stop the "Who cares that I died, I have the baddest 4th level PC around with tons of DM loot!" attitude.

Oh! Speaking of DM loot. Back when I started (several years ago), DM loot was few and far between and not handed out like candy every time a DM is involved in something. Seeing obits where PC's have a half-dozen DM loot items is kinda frustrating to those players that are happy to get one item in a PC's life. Not saying some PC's that have been around for a year of RL playing time shouldn't have them, but those that are around a month and have a half dozen or more kinda sways the entire PvP thing way out of balance. And kinda proves the DM attention (i.e.; PvP) = DM loot mentality. Just because you have a DM's attention shouldn't mean you get DM loot. IMO, DM loot should be earned only on very special, very rare occasions.

Sheer Gluttony

Rather than adressing the "grind" as has always been done and seems ineffective in meeting peoples desires, I believe a change to the death system would make more sense, even if only a temporary trial.  The issue so far as I can see isn't that people totally hate questing, its that they hate the feeling of hitting the same lower level, less interesting quests over and over each time they die to something.  This is understandable, I mean why would your former yotal badass get run through by an orc and decide the only way to gain magical powers back is by constantly spamming goblins to death in a rocky style training montage.  There is in my opinion a simple solution.

Either:

A) Cut exp loss to 1/5 OR make it so you lose gold/supplies instead as they are smashed/stolen?

B) Make it so dying results in increased withering as you soul weakens from near death experience allowing the curse to grow.

C) My personal favourite, make it so fuguing and being wounded makes you, you know, wounded.  Set certain considerable penalties on pc's from when they respawn due to their grievous wounds, something that will make them weaker in combat for the time it takes to recover.  This discourages quest spamming to get back to optimal performance and encourages RP'ing injury, giving you time to do other stuff, and for those who want to go and "grind" quests, make it so these wounds can be healed at a much faster rate from an exp or gold cost.

Erwin the German

Late Border Kingdoms had a system of AC and AB penalties upon death. These would stack with every death. Something to consider, maybe. Maybe drop spellcaster spell level, as well? That might be a little more debilitating, though.

These would of course be temporary, though I'm uncertain as to how that should be handled. Just tossing ideas out.

Random_White_Guy

I dislike the idea of mechanical crunching on death because in a lot of ways it's just as debilitating if not moreso. Yes the XP hit sucks, a lot, but at least you can still get involved in other aspects of EFU without too much misery. Exploring, alchemy, minor quests, mist's end fights, etc.

That's less crippling in a lot of ways than entire reset, or x amount of time with butchered stats. I could just as easily forsee an endless and terrible cycle of PvP/Quest deaths for "Wounded" PCs.
[11:23 PM] Howlando: Feel free LealWG
[11:23 PM] Howlando: I'll give you a high five + fist bump tip

[1:34 AM] BigOrcMan: RwG, a moment on the lips, forever on the hips

PlayaCharacter

This has been a consistent problem since I started playing EfU nearly seven years ago. I've always had the same prescription: that which gets rewarded gets done.

If you want to see a server where amazing role play is more common than another boring character death, then make amazing role play more profitable than PvP. EfU is and always has been one of the very few servers which combines hardcore permadeath with more or less free reign to PvP. This creates a powerful incentive to kill other characters. Player characters have always dropped the best loot. Acknowledging that, EfU has also had the most dramatic character interaction for the obvious reason that death is forever. It's a double edged sword, and EfU leans toward the sharpest edge.

There is a balance between the twin extremes of a pure hardcore PvP server and a pure role-play server which I think EfU has yet to achieve. Levels do matter, but rightly so in my opinion. There's just still a bit more balancing that needs to be done. I could be totally wrong about this, but it's always felt like, when compared to PvP, good role play has never mattered much to the DMs outside of screenshot threads. My best characters on EfU never lasted as long as my worst characters on other servers (back when there were other servers).

We've been playing this game together for ten years now. I don't care who "wins." I'd just like to run a character or two who matters without having to be some PvP demigod. The closest I ever came to that was Jharla Decker, and it was an enjoyable enough experience that I've spent most of the time since chasing after that goal. What keeps me playing EfU is that I'm still holding out hope for that perfect moment when a character of mine actually wins by outsmarting, outmaneuvering, or otherwise achieving their goals through some means other than being a PvP crushbot.

It seems to me that of all things, a role-play server should be able to offer that. EfU does not, but out of any other place I've ever found online, it comes the closest. At the very least, here if I get it I will feel like I earned it.

Jasede

^
I think that's a very good post. It's a double-edged sword. But I think most of stick around (or drop by once a year ;) ) because we like that edge. There's other servers around to play on but none where you combine RP with (relatively) extreme danger.

You can try those other servers to see how it's different. I promise you'll come back yearning for the danger. I sometimes play elsewhere just to remind myself how precious this server is.

It's like when you hang out with an ugly girl for a bit just to remind yourself how much better your pretty girlfriend is.

Howlando

I believe SC summarizes a lot of what I believe. I take issue with a lot of what's been said in this thread, but I would invite players with concern to approach me on an individual basis so I can help them figure out a playstyle and approach that would lead them to enjoy the server according to their particular tastes.

I also welcome specific suggestions for how we can improve things, there is too much disagreement amongst the contributors in this thread to be able to effectively address these topics.

Random_White_Guy

Quote from: HowlandI believe SC summarizes a lot of what I believe. I take issue with a lot of what's been said in this thread, but I would invite players with concern to approach me on an individual basis so I can help them figure out a playstyle and approach that would lead them to enjoy the server according to their particular tastes.

I also welcome specific suggestions for how we can improve things, there is too much disagreement amongst the contributors in this thread to be able to effectively address these topics.

Well since the first post kinda blew up out of control and stirred a lot of OOC conflict debates in IRC and in the thread, I thought i'd make another one with some more constructive attempts as I kinda started this mess. It was made as a ragepost in a time of frustration, since passed, so I thought I'd try to do a more constructive attempt.

I don't hate questing, I don't think the XP on EFU is out of whack. I don't think the supplies need retooling. I don't think change is all that needed. Honestly my biggest concern is death isn't death so much as getting your ticket punched to need to quest more.

I see questing as a great part of EFU but at the same time it grows to be a distraction. I like the progressive leveling system but not the Degressive[/b] leveling system that at times comes from it.

If you're in the throes of conflict with an established PC in pursuit of another faction or have another faction pursuing you, a mistake happens and you die, you're delegated from that situation to run Goblins in the Granary.

Conflict and high end dangerous actions require levels and XP and if you are in a situation you can't control (Lag deaths, bugs, unfortunate events, unwise choices on quests, etc): You are given a severe handicap.

That being said I guess the most basic of things I can suggest is:

Lose the candle system.

The fact you need 1500 gold and a friend to return and lose less XP? Counter productive.

Make the Candles to return from DM chosen deaths or PvP.

Raise the current Respawn XP to the Candle XP.


I don't know if it's a perfect solution but it seems like a step in the somewhat right direction without massive overhaul.
[11:23 PM] Howlando: Feel free LealWG
[11:23 PM] Howlando: I'll give you a high five + fist bump tip

[1:34 AM] BigOrcMan: RwG, a moment on the lips, forever on the hips

granny

I agree with BOM and the last posts...
RP, involvement and plotting should bring more rewards than it does currently. Maybe it should bring even more than quests would be able to.

I am not sure, but maybe a couple of things could be done to achieve this:

  • mark exiled characters with some sort of constand minor reward. The reason for it is that exiled characters should be the ones involved into bringing meaningful conflicts for the server (exile should then start to be used as a really important tool, not just to ban anything that bothers your sight of view). Exiled characters have currently big troubles to keep up growing as the town is not only the best source of gold, (poisoned) water and friends: it's the best source of xp as well;

  • arrange more explicit long term plots to be achieved, with the same ammount of effort that is currently being given to preludes. It might sound a bit funny, but I would suggest even a table with minor goals, for marking whatever was acomplished or not. I don't have issues about setting up goals and trying to pursue them myself. Although, I won't deny it is a hard task and that I would love to have something on the system of the community that would make it easier. There are many plots around, I know. But many of them could receive a spot light and get some of us directed with more emphasys to them;

  • arrange more (yes, we got many already) kinds of reward, like fame. I love the ambient changes accordingly to the achievements of PCs. It's nice to see the environment changing due to our actions. So more NPCs commenting about PCs and markings around the server that would give reminders of whatever success or failure someone was able to reach...

  • I don't know, but it would be nice if we got XP rewards for successful alchemical and herbalistic tries, we get xp for less dangerous things, the reward here could not only be to survive and get the item we were crafting;

  • it would be interesting if we had more archeologists, carpenters, farmers and builders around the server, with some kind of system that would reward this kind of activity. It is funny for me to watch a bunch of mages living around the rubles of the Conclave for so long and to watch Mistlocke with the two destroyed houses without making anything about it.
I uderstand that mostly of what I am suggesting is being already done. That's why I am giving emphasys to the word "more", something like BOM posted (I don't know if he was being ironic, although... I am kinda slow for this kind of things). It is about to diminish the importance of quests and give the RP scene a better position to be pursued.

There are many ways to cripple an enemy character, we all know. Although they usually end in PvP. Be it for a narrow minded point of view of the masse, or be it due to the system usually make us more inclined towards it.

It would be nice to know of the tales of PCs that were successful into getting the best piece of the cake that managed to kick the ass of rivals without having to kill them or their best friends. People should start sharing this kind of story. We need inspiration to create things.

Also, it would be nice to brain storm about more mechanical ways of influencing other PCs without having to get dirty into PvP. I like the current implementations of poison and curse. They allow you to do a lot of things without having to bug DMs for it. If we are about to put some effort into something, it would be this.

DMs are not aware of everything we do. Even not even aware if we fill up the Personal Character Notes with as much detail as needed. You guys already mentioned that you are humans and limited, as much as we are. It would be nice to have tools to make it easier to deliver the rewards to the PCs that are activelly trying to get involved into things other than quests, without giving you guys too much trouble.

putrid_plum

Questing and PvP will always be apart of EFU and it will likely never change until the DMs actually admit they are issue and sit down and find a solution that's not telling the player base everything is ok and we are imagining all these things together at the same time. That said. A change will be complicated and take serious though.

Howlando

I think all of us readily admit that EFU has plenty of problems, I genuinely do consider it a successful yet massively flawed project.

Anyway, clearly articulating suggestions as to how to improve things seems the best way to move forward - angsting out about an individual's personal experience in EFU is just hard to meaningfully address.

PonyPower

Maybe it would be an idea to reduce the XP loss and add the sorta AC-Con-Dex debuff you get after after you've been subdued? The debuff could last for a few hours(days?) and represent your armor getting a decent dent or a crushed rib. You could always pay a smith or a cleric to set you right.


I'm not sure if this would make completing a quest more difficult or if people would simply log out and wait for for it to pass. Just a thought!

Weaverific

One simple possible solution:  Reduce the XP cost from death so one unlucky roll on scripted or DM quest means you are not easy prey for ganking the next day.

Ebok

I don't know how to respond directly to this, but I'm going to try in my own way.

I'm one of those people that enjoys questing, I like the teamwork a good network provides, I like the feeling of trust you gain with others when you "save" them or are "saved" by them. I play efu to play in these types of dungeon delving teams. This means, I can gain exp quickly, I can gain supplies quickly, and I'm usually on the higher if not highest tier when it comes to level and basic essential loot. 9th or 10th level is easy for me if I want it to be.

I don't play efu because I want or enjoy being political. I avoid running factions, I avoid trying to meaningfully change the game-world. I do this because I do not enjoy being in these roles of authority or responsibility. It takes the GAME out of it for me, and I have enough WORK to do elsewhere. Instead, I've always tried to support players that have these goals, to add ambiance and fun to what could otherwise be monotony or empty space.

I end up in two situations.
[INDENT]A.) I'm expected to PvP when the time comes, defend my positions, etc. It's not the only option, but if I'm in a PvP, it was. I get extremely upset when I beat someone else in PvP. I don't like it. (I don't mind losing at all, until I'm full looted and left alive. That just means I can't quest for fun easily). I don't like feeling that my questing made someone's story stop. So I almost always attempt to find other ways to have conflict.

B.) I'm expected to take my supportive ambient pc and start running a faction, or calling shots, or pushing plots, just because I happened to get high level questing for fun, or land on a DM plot. I hate being high level, its just pressure from the DMs to DO MORE, or the awareness that I'm letting someone else down that I can't actually see.

[/INDENT]I'm always told: "Your character should've been lower level."

If a high level PC could only attain that level by doing what you wanted of them, FINE. But it really really sucks to be told you're too strong for what you bring to the server. I'm never going to name names here, because, I just play here to play with you guys. The only reason I log on is to try to get another person to enjoy the game a bit more because of it.
Quote from: "tl;dr"tl;dr: If a high level character should only be gained by players that achieve a certain standard, then the act of pursuing that standard should be what brings you closer to that level. To reward people for questing up till 10th then enforce a different standard on them, or hit them with overwhelming powerful quests when they hit a certain level, is simply not a good position. It will create hard feelings.