"Levels don't matter"

[Thani]

Not worrying about having to spend next week redoing all the same quests you did this week and the week before that would be pretty sweet.

Perhaps then there would even be time to explore other areas of Ymph and do other quests for once. Mostly I just see the same few quests being done over and over again because they're easy/most rewarding.

I don't really know what to say, I'm not all that smooth, but I do agree with what you guys say on this.

[Paha]

Frankly, if it wasn't exp or levels, it'd be grinding for something else, in my opinion that is.

Skills, or abilities of some sort. Somekind system that demanded to do something, just like quests. Or gear and items. Supplies.

Other problem is, what do we do with death. Would we enforce permadeath on every death to make it seem more scary and meaningful, even if it's mainly OOC pain and fear that it inflicts right now - which I myself prefer btw. It's game, and I want there to be that annoyance and possibility of a loss. To me it's big part of roleplaying. Death is meaningful, even if it has to be the fear of losing exp. It's frustrating at times, but without that possibility games would be very dull. Failing must be a possibility.

Another thing is, what would you people do without quests in that sense or sense of chasing something? I am being fully honest. Every single one of you, one of us, tends to just linger around or not even log in if they are not questing and can't figure something interesting to do outside it - and this happens a lot unless DM runs something. Do you have a solution to this, if exp and levels were stripped and even bigger window of free and innovative time is left on your table? It is not being used very well this far as it is.

Perfection is something that does not exist. Grinding and repeating will always exist in some form.

[Ryan]

Border Kingdoms had an intriguing alternate form of advancement in the whole "renown" thing. You'd have NPCs talking about you eventually, you'd get faction benefits, maybe loot depending on how well known you are, etc. It was a nice, more satisfying form of character development than arbitrary levels.

My two cents, anyway.

[sylvyrdragon]

I think we can all say that running a quest from time to time is fun, what most (not everyone) dislikes is the need to 'grind' quest to get levels, potions, loot etc.

Yes, there are some that RP very well during a quest, but I would be willing to bet most just run through the quest crush and grab, then move on to the next.

I know I'm mechanically challenged in Nwn.  I just don't have the time, nor do I wish to make the time to change that fact.  What this meant to me was that most of what my character did was going to be behind the scenes.  Therefore sadly over looked by most players and DM's.  I'm not complaining, it's easier to gather information, or set someone up when they know the player is not a threat.  I could happily go about my business and not worry of what most players do, DM loot or player recognition. After 5 years of this it does start to get rather old though.

Basically, what I'm saying is that levels do matter... no matter if you are the one pulling the strings, or doing the fighting, eventually you are going to have to fight someone.  Being a level 6 with min supplies VS. a level 9 that has quest trained for weeks, is not a fun prospect.

[Valo56]

It is sad that they do matter to the extent they do presently. I've felt pressured on my last few  characters to avoid any conflict until hitting 7/8, though admittedly  one was a H'balan cultist so I am sure most would agree it's for the  best to wait regardless of the validity of levels.

Lately I've been trying to move away from doing the mundane quests. It's  been weeks, maybe months since I've done the granary or well quest, or  really any combat quest aside from Old Wallace's inside Mistlocke. I do  gathering quests, explore the isle and do random areas with a buddy (far more exciting and rewarding than any quest in Mistlocke).  When I do quest, I take just a few people with me and find the hardest  quest we could conceivably do. It keeps things more exciting and more of  an adventure.

Supplies matter, but not as much as most think. What more need to do is  rely less on their 100+ serious healing and more on having a plan that  doesn't involve "CRUSH!" and more on exploiting some weakness the enemy  has with either a spell, ability or item. Why are wizards so strong and  barely need any supplies? Because they plan their fights out.

[Bearic]

Rwg, you said win, you should have said have fun, with us. So you should come back and rock out! XD

[Random_White_Guy]

Firstly just wanna say appreciate the constructiveness haha, this was definitely one of them rage posts.

EFU:M is hands down the easiest chapter, SC. And rightly so. There's a lot of ways and means to influence EFU as a whole but I've just found myself in a relentless, and albeit impatient cycle. You of all folks has been the most supportive and for that I am thankful! Time and again do I let you down :(

As to your points Paha I'm not saying quests should be done away with. I'm not even saying they should be changed. Hell I'm not even saying anything should be changed. It was most definitely a ragepost but at the same time it's just something I've encountered time and again. There's this huge feeling on EFU that if you're not questing you get left behind, and it shows itself in full when it comes to conflict. Perhaps that's how it should be, perhaps it involves more people to spread it out but it always feels off to hire on the high levels to fight for you.

As you said, CR questing is a great opportunity to flex characters in action. Especially if it's for a short while and just hopping on now and then to have yourself a little adventure. The problem is there's a line where it stops being fun and starts being necessity.  As Vlaid said- If you get into conflict with someone, then die, it feels like a huge game of catch up if you want to avoid getting your face stomped in.

Again, apologies for the big rage post.

[Vlaid]

Frankly, if it wasn't exp or levels, it'd be grinding for something else, in my opinion that is.

Skills, or abilities of some sort. Somekind system that demanded to do something, just like quests. Or gear and items. Supplies.

Other problem is, what do we do with death. Would we enforce permadeath on every death to make it seem more scary and meaningful, even if it's mainly OOC pain and fear that it inflicts right now - which I myself prefer btw. It's game, and I want there to be that annoyance and possibility of a loss. To me it's big part of roleplaying. Death is meaningful, even if it has to be the fear of losing exp. It's frustrating at times, but without that possibility games would be very dull. Failing must be a possibility.

Another thing is, what would you people do without quests in that sense or sense of chasing something? I am being fully honest. Every single one of you, one of us, tends to just linger around or not even log in if they are not questing and can't figure something interesting to do outside it - and this happens a lot unless DM runs something. Do you have a solution to this, if exp and levels were stripped and even bigger window of free and innovative time is left on your table? It is not being used very well this far as it is.

Perfection is something that does not exist. Grinding and repeating will always exist in some form.

It could be possible that you have the situation backwards. The drive to attain levels and loot because they matter so much is what leads to this wasteful use of PC energy rather than players inherently having little of interest to say, plot, or do. It could be that putting so much emphasis on the XP/consumable treadmill has lead to the culture that might be boring to many players and DM's.

Basically what it boils down to nowadays is that nobody wants to be on  the low end of the perceived curve of power. Most people I think just  want to get to 7-8, and enough supplies to defend themselves so they  aren't fodder for any ol' crusher with a few basic buffs. If they feel  they need to spend a lot of time questing, gathering supplies and so on  just to hang in the conflict/plot....that time spent do so detracts a  lot of attention away from their actual plots and goals.

As for the death system. I've always liked the idea of an XP debt system(without level loss), possibly with a temporary level drain-like effect until server reset to make death scary, but temporary, but not altogether REQUIRING you to spam quests. May not be the best alternative, but it's an idea.

I remember the days of old in EFU when the level range and power curve was far more depressed, more in the 6-7 at the top end (with occasional rare 9's). Getting and keeping level 6 was enough to make you a real boy. You rarely got this full repertoire of supplies you see today on most PC's.

It may be nostalgia, but it feels like questing/loot was less of a big deal back then (or I just sucked more and never got it). If my memory isn't fuzzy with rose colored glasses, now maybe that's because the perceived attainable height of levels, consumables and loot was much lower.

The farther up/away you put the perceived highest level of power(be it in levels or need for supplies), the more people will feel the need/requirement to chase even higher so they aren't meat for the top end. Maybe all that's needed is to scale things back a bit so getting higher than x is significantly harder, but getting to x is significantly easier.

TL;DR: As the perceived level attainable has risen, so too has the amount of time it takes to get that level and get supplies to be able to defend yourself. Possible measures need to be taken to lower the gap between what is easily achievable, and what is achievable with a large amount of time invested into questing and supplying yourself.

[xxWhisperingWindsxx]

I realize that what I'm about to say is probably going to come off extremely bitchy and ungrateful in light of what I have achieved with Rani.  I've had other PCs that have had some pretty neat experience as well.

So I want it to be made understood upfront that this is an OOC feeling that's been brewing off and on for the entire almost 5 years I've been here.

If a large-ish number of people consistently see the same issues over and over again, how is it that they are the one's being told they're wrong, or not perceiving things right?  If a number of people are seeing the same problem, there's quite obviously a problem that needs to be looked at.

As a DM, you can be running the niftiest, coolest, most mind-blowing plot the server has ever seen ... but if there's only an elite few that even get wind of it, let alone see it ... then there's going to be a perception by a large number that there's something way off kilter.

Same with the continuous revival of PvP and grind issues. A lot of the issues with PvP is a perception matter, of that I'm sure.  It's a vicious cycle.  PvP generally requires a DM, therefore the *smash* crowd inherently will get the DM's attention.  Because they're a "loud" PC that now has a DM attention, well ... you can see where this is going.  

It can tire people to hear "conflict=pvp" and rage that it's wrong and we're horrible and jaded for thinking that way.  It's just as tiring to see that very thing played out over and over again, and yet get told you're wrong.  If it wasn't happening, the perception wouldn't be there.

If so many people have the wrong "perception" and all we got continually told is that we're wrong and ungrateful bitches that wear out the DMs, that's not going to solve the problem.  All that's going to do is widen the gap that shrinks and grows within our community.  We're not trying to wear out the DMs.  We're trying to tell you issues that we see.

There's always going to be division within any given community.  Most times in a situation like this, all we have to go on is perception.  So if there's a perception that you have to grind, PvP, be an "in your face" player to do anything .... well, then there's an adjustment that needs to be made all around.  

We're likely always going to be a divided playerbase.  We have some that are power-gamerish, some that are WoWi-ish, some that are pure story driven, and varying levels in between.  That alone is going to cause some very major confliction OOCly about what happens or what should happen.

If there's so many that are so inherently wrong about what EFU is about, maybe there needs to be more illumination into what it is about, instead of a jaded "you're wrong" thrown at them.

[Valo56]

Same with the continuous revival of PvP and grind issues. A lot of the  issues with PvP is a perception matter, of that I'm sure.  It's a  vicious cycle.  PvP generally requires a DM, therefore the *smash* crowd  inherently will get the DM's attention.  Because they're a "loud" PC  that now has a DM attention, well ... you can see where this is going.

Though the rewards of winning PvP are far more tangible, the losers aren't left in the mud. Once a group of dwarves I was with died in PvP, the entire group gone. It was a pretty epic end but we never really stood a chance, being outmatched in nearly all ways. A DM gave us a prelude on our next concept complete with a bit of loot.

More lately, I was in a thieves' guild and we did a lot of mugging. Most of the time it was me and two others, who typically got our asses kicked. More often than not we were fleeing for our lives or being beaten down and robbed ourselves, it was kind of funny. In the end the DM's ran a few little quests/events for us and we started to turn it around before our deaths.

Did the people who beat us on those occasions get quests? Did the guy who eventually killed us get a quest for it, or any XP or loot? No. The important thing is to keep going at it, like we did. But more important is to be considerate OOC. In those instances where we did win PvP, we stuck to our guild's goals of collecting gold, gems and jewelry, and didn't go crazy on looting our victim, rarely taking more than a few potions of healing or strength.

Perhaps the biggest thing in PvP is to fight for what started the PvP, not for what is in the other guy's pack. Though taking a few things is entirely reasonable, taking everything they own is entirely unnecessary in 99% of all conflict. Save the looting for when they're dead and won't need it anymore.

Of course, if you beat someone down and they continue to insult and threaten you, little mercy should be shown.

[Sternhund]

I skipped reading all the long posts so I might have missed a few suggestions.

I like the constructive criticism provided in the original post, but I am curious about suggestions on how to potentially fix the grind. I did a few minutes of brainstorming and am struggling to find an elegant way of going about it in NWN. If someone can break it down into a palatable form (not wall-of-text) I think that would be awesome. :)

[EDIT] Bullet points, twitter-length suggestions, or tl;dr's would be great

[Mr Howardson]

You can permit people to enter the game at level 8- no supplies or shit, these people can be "Mistlocke" or "Ymphian" veterans.

No gear but starter gear, no supplies but starter supplies.

[Big Orc Man]

It's a definite dilemma.

If you quest a lot and don't particularly enjoy doing so, that's of course dead space in your playtime.

If you don't have to quest, however, and immediately have power, then there's very little that you lose from dying, even permanently from PVP.

Death's should hurt, but it should definitely be in a balanced fashion.

If you're doing things that aren't quest-related, but are very plot-driven, then there are definitely other rewards available to you (for example, large amounts of XP given for productive characters involving others).

That said, I think your point, while rage-driven, is valid!

I would love to see the server as a place where there are various ways to become stronger as a character, besides solely questing.

It's logical, then, for XP rewards for roleplaying to be massive enough for, say, a grizzled old quartermaster to become tough enough to survive reasonably without doing tons of quests.

Levels do matter, for sure, although I think it's fair to say that most of what can be done at level ten can probably be done at level eight (easy to reach) with some extra backup.

Your point is well taken, though.  I'll redouble efforts to see constructive PCs rewarded even more heavily than they have been so that it's a more viable alternative.

<3 RWG.

[The Old Hack]

As above, but have people app for level instead of giving it to them. They will still have put in work, but it won't be grindwork, it will be story preparation and planned contribution work. Exact level is negotiable but 7 or 8 seems like a reasonable starting point.

Or: increased generosity with XP rewards for people who make large contributions of their own time to the server. By running an organisation, helping plots along, researching, documenting and publishing server history, et cetera.

Discussing the death penalty is a dreadful can of worms to open but I should at least mention it as a source of a great many ragequits and perhaps not the ideal way of regulating server power level. (Oddly, I think that it is not necessarily the penalty itself that is the greatest contributing factor as the fact that you sometimes die in ways that seem arbitrary, stupid or plain unfair. Going toe to toe with a giant and then dying may be awful but at least it was something you chose and it is your own fault. Dying to a game mechanic that is too inflexible, to a hidden monster that paralyses and kills you before you can react or due to lag teleporting you back into a trap you had already escaped is AWFUL and is by far the greatest contributor to stress and ragequits I know.)

~tOH.

[HoHoHeeHee]

We have seen a plethora of level 10 PCs lately that just don't meet the kinds of expectations we have for level 10 PCs (epitomising their class, proactively pushing an agenda, being an INSTITUTION / prominent member of the community, leading a faction, etc etc.)

Yet they are heavily supported and looted out

The end game content for level 10 PCs doesn't really exist, there is the level cap (you must apply for each level beyond 10) but there is also the fact that by that point you should be the end game content, you should be making and changing things in the world, thinking in a DM-like fashion, leading players to the creation and propagation of the Awesome.

There is plenty of content for high end PCs, but no one wants to go do it because the reward is not worth the risk. This has long been an argument of my own. Reduce the randomness on the high end stuff and re-balance it to be useful (all in suggestion forums already) and I bet you'll see these 10s doing more than crushing in pvp.

Speaking of, you want these level 10s to be the end game content in a world designed around massive conflict and a lot of pvp that stems from it. You want them to lead others, define classes, etc, but it is not very supported outside of direct DM involvement and the high level PCs will quickly find themselves drained without a means to keep supplied, etc. Furthermore, you want us to portray our characters as end game content when we're stuck in a world with things that twenty level 10 characters couldn't scratch. It's impossible and also quite foolish to pretend we are the end game content when surrounded by things far more deadly, powerful, potent, etc.

To survive such a world and even slightly portray what you desire, we quite simply do -require- the things that are said not to matter. How many haste and displacement I have, alongside my resilience / levels, is quite simply what it does boil down to when we're trying to do exactly what you request, and portray ourselves as pillars of the in game community. While there are exceptions to that as mentioned, in general it is quite true.

I really resent it when people make these bald assertions about this stuff, particularly when their PCs are frequently just spectators of all such activity that occurs, just taking one particular side, going with the tide, or clinging to some philosophy without the full picture or a greater experience of things.

Some of you really have to have more faith and trust in the work of your fellow players and DMs, and the fact that this is not an arena server. Some players are much better than others at PvP, some players have more time than others, and that's just something you have to deal with. Make your character and their goals with this in mind. It doesn't mean you can't still do and achieve things, but it does mean you have to be more creative and conscious of your limitations.

All quite true, but there is a simple truth that PvP will find -most- characters that do create interesting conflict and stories that impact the player base.  In my opinion the only thing worse than someone that believes dominating PVP will bring them real success is the raw ignorance and hatred that stems from successful pvp anymore. It used to be something that was rewarded, and rewarded well at that. These days you see more pvp than before and most of it lacks as much flavor or story, something I believe comes from the lack of rewards for quality pvp that has come from story or conflict.

Just because someone spent a little time learning a rather simple system of mechanics does not mean they should be punished for it, or have their story / RP overlooked because they have success in this area as well.