"Levels don't matter"

[Random_White_Guy]

I've written and rewritten this like 15 times like all good rage posts, but I can't help but feel it comes back to one singular point-

If levels don't matter, why is the death penalty on EFU so crippling?

There's no "Added risk of death" by having the penalty being so crippling, only an added risk of having to quest more.

I've seen PCs die, respawn, die, respawn, die, respawn 16 times in one DM event. I've seen PCs die, respawn, die, respawn, die, respawn countless times on quests.

Everyone and their mother can agree EFU hit's its prime when you're in the mid level quest range. Level 7 or 8 makes EFU infinitely better because you can quest -when you want to- rather than "Because you have to".

Long have I played EFU and this has lead me to this singular conclusion.

I fucking hate that questing is "required" for EFU.

And I feel disgusted to admit my last PC was a blatant attempt at self serving, selfish, blatantly cowardly Rp and cowardly actions to survive to level up. And then I died, to a random and mundane Vein Vine, and lost 10,000 XP.

If I wanted to run my fingers raw against faceless NPCs for grinding xp and supplies I'd play WoW.

So, I'd just like to thank the PCs and DMs for their fun over all this time but I've just reached my limit.

You can't enter conflict into EFU and expect to win unless you spend hours, days weeks, and longer questing.

Frankly that pisses me off to no end and I can't do it anymore.

I have enough faith in our EFU playerbase that if we were allowed to start at a decent level where mechanical scrubs such as I could at least feel we put up an inkling of a fight, we could handle it.

That if there was a decent way to make and get supplies, level the playingfield of XP, and more on par with the people who enjoy questing then deciding they want to get into conflict, EFU would be a greatly better place.

The RP during quests is fun but it is not the same as the RP when you're involved with a DM. The RP during questing is fun but it is not the same as the RP when you're involved in scheming, hesiting, planning, working towards a goal.

"Oh man that was tough", "Damn I need more healing", "Guys let's fight those gnolls", "Hey man lemme rest and we can crush those trolls".

[Outcast]

I can't agree with this more.  . . then again I'm a mechanically retarded miscreant who makes nothing but cookie cutter PCs amirite.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

Levels 100% matter. Especially if you rely on spells. For others levels don't matter -as much- as your potion cache.

[xxWhisperingWindsxx]

You can't enter conflict into EFU and expect to win unless you spend hours, days weeks, and longer questing.

This right here says more than you think.  The only reason you need retarded levels and supplies to deal with conflict is because for some reason conflict always seems to equal PvP.  Proper PvP has it's place.  But sadly, it seems like PvP usually means, "beat the living hell out of people and take their crap".  Anything less, or rather, any other kind of conflict is looked upon rather unfavorably.

Yes, I've heard the "oh no, it's not that way" line more times than I ever want to hear again.  Frankly, actions speak much louder than any lines typed.  Say what you will, it is that way generally speaking.

[Damien]

yeah i get pissed when i die too then i have  abreak and realise its a game

[Erwin the German]

As fun as the questing is in EFU and as well made as they are... I gotta give RWG this. Quests serve no purpose but to prepare people for PVP and conflict, and at low levels they absolutely feel like a menial task rather than fun. Granted, we the veterans have the experience and perhaps jaded attitudes towards them, I'm sure the new players get a lot of enjoyment out of them.

I dunno if this is easily solved, but as a veteran who's ran these quests and died, then had to re-do them again so I'd feel comfortable... it's not that fun.

[The Old Hack]

Unfortunately, levels do matter. Enough that if you work hard to reach almost 9 or something like it and then die to a stupid situation you can't help, it makes you want to ragequit. Yesterday I had an overall bad day with every single thing I tried going wrong, then at the end I went on a DM event, at the end of which I died due to mechanical reasons -- my character was stunned, targeted by an NPC slowly hacking her to bits, and nobody could do anything to save me because we had a huge gelatinous cube on top of us that made it impossible to either target me for healing or the NPC to get its aggro.

Afterwards, all my gold was spent on a candle, I lost XP from almost 9 to bottom of 8, and my mood was ruined. I almost ragequit and didn't only because 1) I barely sat on it and 2) friends talked me out of it. Now I've put my character on break and am doing something else till I feel less thoroughly irritated.

Short end: I sympathise with RwG. I am in no way making any demands but I would darn well not object to his comments being taken under due consideration. Sigh.

~tOH.

[Blue41]

Betrayals, bad pvp, shitty situations where my PC's been on the run- I've taken all that in stride. The closest I've come to ragequitting has been that moment where you gain that mythical level 9/10 for a few precious minutes/hours and then die to some random, unseen enemy out in the middle of nowhere. And usually I've got people with me, and the enemy is killed and my body is recovered at once, and the only thing I lose is time- time that makes you wonder, God, do I really want to do that again?

Minimizing xp loss will save you some time. That's it, that's not really the issue here. Questing is a means to an end for the people who have been here long enough to have run through most of what's available.

You don't need levels to make conflict. You just need levels- and potions, which comes along the way- if you want to win it. And how is 'winning a conflict' usually defined in efu? Like Wind said, the easiest and least imaginative way is silence the opposition for good. But there are other ways to come out on top than pvp. Get into politics, hurt them through their wallet, throw roadblocks in the way of their goals, buy off their friends...or maybe just make friends who can do the fighting for you!

I like questing, I like pvp, but they can be a slog to prepare for, especially if you're hopping on that train. You know for a fact that this doesn't work for you- so don't do it. I know for a fact that you've found more creative alternatives in the past.

[Weaverific]

PVP generally breaks down to who has the most supplies to blow on their enemy.  I generally lose because since I have a full time job, I don't have the time to grind, filling my bags with supplies along the way.

It becomes hard to do quests without grinding buddies because most of the higher level quests are done by small groups of friends/faction members who run them over and over and over again together.  I can do sendings all day, if everyone else is already in their questing groups, it hardly matters.

Because I can't grind quests, I'll lose most PVP and even most non PVP faction conflict eventually boils into PVP when people try to kill each other as they plot over the latest Great McGuffin Hunt, Lost Widget of Magic, election etc.  I find the people saying "not all conflict is PVP" are simply not looking at it realistically.  Because eventually, if you succeed, the other side is going to just try to kill you.

It is frustrating.  Unlike RWG, I still actually enjoy doing quests but it is hard to get "pub" groups to do anything besides the standard, easy ones like gnolls/well/muskroots tower.  No one wants to go and do the harder quests without their questing buddies and really, considering the steep penalty for failure, why would they?

[Numos]

I once went from 8th level to 5th in a weekend and was tempted to drop my character because of it. I understand your frustration completely, and I vastly prefer meaningful interactions with players and DMs to questing - though I certainly don't mind the odd gnoll-smashing and well-cleaning. I spent the next week doing Poisoned Well (because its quick, kinda fun, and yields decent experience) like a mad-man. Playing an unfortunately multiclassed wizard who, if he loses 4th level spells has extremely difficulty getting them back, has unfortunately my changed my behavior in playing him for the worse. Which often forces me to decide between, "Spiced quest. Or being able to do wizardy things like scrying and curse-breaking?"

I think we can all agree that 7-8 is the "sweet-spot" on EFU, with 9+ being more or less fluff for major movers and shakers. The inherit problem with removing the extreme death penalties is you'll start to see power-bloat, and eventually 11-12 will become the new 7-8 and so on. Plus... well, I've never had my heart pounding over being chased by a troll on any other NWN server.

This is just a suggestion, but perhaps roleplaying experience ticks could be awarded up through 7th rather than 5th? That way bouncing back after death doesn't feel as much of a chore to those who are disinterested in non-stop questing and more interested in social interaction?

[Axiom]

Rewrote my post about twenty times and could not have said it better Weaverific. Mechanical power and the effects it has on PvP matter. Not really sure if any server changes can be made in regards to this (or even should be), but as a player base I think we do need to accept this reality. When you make a character that is less mechanically powerful than a normal EfU build (not a power build, but not a weak build either), you are at an disadvantage.

[Rincewind1]

I'd approve of a suggestion for level 7 to be the new level 6, so to speak.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

I love quests. It is a great chance for rp and to really express your character. Their interaction with other people, how they react to threats and view the world, their method of thought process; how they handle stress, specific situations or arguments. Just levels do matter. Don't expect to go beyond level 5/6, for those are the 'high levels' and only temporary, and if you do reach there be humble about it. That's how I work.

[Vlaid]

I've waffled back and forth on this a lot. I played another PW not too long ago where there was a fixed level, no advancement in the form of XP at all. I really enjoyed not worrying about my level, it let me focus on bigger and better things.

Agree with everything you said RWG. It just gets tiring having to continually regain levels just to feel complete again. I don't feel like it adds much. How many of us can attest to suddenly losing 4-5 levels on some intense,  brutal DM event where everyone respawned multiple times....only to get FD'ed in PVP the next day because you just HAPPEND to get into that deadly PVP the day after, and lost only because you just HAPPENED to be level 4-5 at the time of that pvp instead of the 8-9 you have been for weeks/months?

Not sure what the best solution would be, but I get burned out on the level loss/re-leveling treadmill very quickly. Partially lead to the retirement of my last 2 PC's.

[Caster13]

Admittedly, when I heard of Border Kingdoms and how they had a system where everybody started (and stayed) at a certain level I was greatly intrigued.

On the other hand, PCs having to climb the level ladder is the sort of "gamification" that adds a sense of agency for self-improvement. Dorn the Dwarf isn't grinding orcs, earning XP, and gaining a level. Dorn the Dwarf has become a blooded and expert slayer of orcs, his days of cutting them down and facing their axes sharpening his combat senses again the vile spawn of Gruumsh.

In conclusion, maybe there are better systems out there, but it sure ain't easy finding them.