Update Assassin PrC too?

[Egon the Monkey]

Since Divine Champ and Knight have been changed to remove the non-evil requirement, could Assassin be updated to allow Neutral and Good Assassins with an appropriate app (for example someone  who apped as say a Scarlet Mummer, who arguably could be seen as an order of Good-aligned assassins).

The RP requirement then could be "must have killed someone for pay, or be acting on the orders or motivation of a superior decicated to the same cause as yourself".

On a related note, well done to ScottyB on the update to make PrCs accessible without having to quest up to level 7 or 8 first.

[bugnosed_beastie]

This sparks off the discussion that assassins and all their sneaky ways (poisons, backstabbing etc.) are inherently evil acts. Sure, good people can hire assassins to kill evil people, but I very much doubt that any Good people who became assassins would stay that way very long. Assassins do people's dirty work, and ruin their soul, so others don't have to.

Although, having said that, neutral assassins might work.

[IxTheSpeedy]

I think killing someone in a secretive cold blood manner is definately inherently evil.  I've gotten "evil points" IG for just standing there while someone was executed.

[Dr Dragon]

What next good blackguards? Assasin should remain as evil only considering this is for professional killers who kill for pay. Besides good assassins are the PRC Gray guards who can violate their paladin oaths.

[Equinox]

how is a grey guard in any way an assasin.

no greyguards are badass pallies who can bend the rules.

assasinations are done by governments, assainating leaders of terrorist organisations and vicious dictators for years. yet they arent seen as "evil" more like, "nessecary"

maybe not good aligned without a damn good app. but i would definately agree with neutral assasins working for just causes.

[Random_White_Guy]

DnD Is very black and white.

Doing evil for a just cause is still evil.

[Equinox]

so it is evil when a paladin kills an evil sharran cult leader?

NOPE. why is it any different for an assasin doing the same.

[Letsplayforfun]

What next, non-good paladins?

Seriously.

[RIPnogarD]

This kinda rolls back to the what alignment is Batman thread, though Batman doesn’t kill he captures, he still has all the skills of an assassin or ninja. James Bond 007 with a License to kill might be a good example of a possible ‘good’ assassin. Bond doesn’t do it for money. He does it for god, country and all that sweet booty!

Would Judge Dread be a ‘good’ assassin?

[Egon the Monkey]

No. Gray Guard is more the Dirty Harry of Paladins.

I started this discussion because although I appreciate that the PrC changes are an excellent way to open up the classes, the alignment restricted ones (except Harper Scout, which isn't that great in the setting) are restricted to Evil/Non Good only.

The Knight class seemed restricted to non-evil as they were expected to be honourable. But, EfU has had some great, often honourable villains like Ortred. And, the Divine Champ, as it locked off champions of Evil (although, arguably Blackguard had that covered)

By the same token, it's possible for a Good character to be a sneaky, devious, backstabbing git. In fact, most action heroes fit exactly that. James Bond, for example, definitely an Assassin. Jason Bourne I'd say was former LE, who lost his memory and went CN.

"Unlike the blackguard, the assassin is not evil due to devotion to an evil power, but rather due to a complete lack of morals or ethics."
Fair enough, but, a character doesn't have to be immoral and Evil to be willing to sneak up on his enemies and dispose of them mercilessly. Please see every Bruce Willis movie ever made for reference material :P.

I'm fairly sure a Lawful Neutral character would work, and a Good character who only ever took on contracts to kill Evil people too, especially if he used a pally as an unwitting accomplice to detect targets. A Hoarran who wasn't Evil, but who was commited to the ideal of vengeance and justice, and was an assassin out of a sense of divine duty, not avarice.

[Letsplayforfun]

You are trying to define good and evil from a RL point of view. DnD is pretty much black and white, with cowards in the middle.

Canon says assassins are evil for a reason. It's what you call murder, not religious crusade or law enforcement.

Note that the examples of heroes you give are out of place, since Bond or Bourne are agents in service, just like a military. Batman is a dark hero considered by his very citizens like a bad guy. The so called heroes in most movies are not professionnal killers, but always military or cops or any duty-aligned folks. It's the guys they kill that are the "evil" assassins.

They're basically just doing law enforcement, with that eternal touch of "yes i'm a cop, but a cool one, i'm cool, i'm actually disobeying orders for a greater good". Because if they were regular cops doing regular work, teenagers would snigger at them and boycott the movies.

[Talir]

Rogue is a class too and many of the characters mentioned, James Bond, Jason Bourne and others, could fall under this class.

Assassins are killers for hire, who are hired to kill for the sake of gold; not justice or any personal motivation. I don't see much neutrality or good in this prestige class and would not wish the restriction changed.

[lovethesuit]

Assassination is a technique, a mode of combat. It is honourless and deceptive, but in the words of Sun Tzu: "All war is deceptive." I believe what the argument is here is that this technique can be used by people who are not necessarily evil, and for reasons other than money. A politician who takes matters into their own hands, or a religious servant who follows the word of their God or clergy.

Assassination is not necessarily murder.

[Cruzel]

The only change this PRC needs is the removal of the hide/ms requirement.

[Snoteye]

Assassins are evil. James Bond is not an assassin; he is not a contract killer. Though he may kill in cold blood he does so in self-defense, and his own survival notwithstanding it is never for a personal gain.

And gray guards are not really "Dirty Harries." They are no doubt the closest you'll get but just because you can atone without consequences does not mean you will be allowed to, depending on the nature of the incident.