What does "Good" Mean to you?

[ScottyB]

Honor Before Reason cannot work in a world where Humans Are Bastards, but that seems to be exactly what the Paladin's code demands.

So we need to rock out the Hoarans until the nebulous forces of evil are easy enough prey for us to roll up some pallies and mop up the mess. It'll be worth it.

[Metro_Pack]

They do not contradict each other Garem. Note the word 'inherent'. Now, look it up.

Yeah you see how you scum.

[PanamaLane]

I've weighed in so often on this topic, I feel like you all could probably guess what I am going to say before I say it. That being the case, I'll just add that if you want to work toward "good" and against "evil" it helps to not be lawful good, at least on this server. The seekers were a great example of this in the past, and there are groups out there functioning similarly at present.

A few lawful good groups have had success, but as a whole they are faced with a simple choice off the bat: Spectate evil or die/get arrested/etc trying to fight it. In all my years playing, I've never seen good defeat evil in a straight up fight when plots were involved. I'm sure its happened, but I've never seen it.

[Daemonic Daz]

Don't forget that good PC's will conflict with good PC's and evil PC's will conflict with evil PC's. It all depends on the type of character you are planning and how you want to go about your goals.

Want to make the ziggurat a better place? Lets look at it from a evil perspective:-

Cheat, lie, murder, backstab, sell your nan to the devil to get to the top spot for ultimate power. Then you can make any law you want.

Davril was going to make animation of the dead illegal and remove the cheerful dead from the mausoleum if things had gone his way. He was also going to impose a adventurers tax on you all to fund the ziggurat. Davrils goals were hardly evil at all, all he wished was some power and say so but had a very immoral way to go about it.

Now lets look at it from the Good perspective:-

Truthful words, promises to the people, using the legal system to fight injustice and corruption, join the guard to gain some say so about how laws are enforced. Make deals with groups to support you, help out key players in your good quest to become a influential individual and then make your move.

Two very different methods on how to achieve the same goal, it could be that the evil PC might need the aid of the good PC somewhere and vice versa. Unless the good PC is a paladin/crazy devote. Theres always room for comprimise and the chance to create more meaningful relationships/conflict between PC's.

Good characters won't get far by smiting everything they see. Trust me on this, I tried. :P

[Garem]

Inherent is very unspecific in the context of this discussion and of NWN/EfU. And I know the definition very clearly. I just disagree.

Inherent, as per mechanically? In that sense, well yea, of course. But that's obvious, and not the case being made in this discussion. The point I'm raising is that there IS a significant advantage when playing evil, inherently due to the nature of evil storylines/plots. The unchanging nature of how good rarely if ever gains notable victories on EfU, noted by PanamaLane's post, makes a strong case for my point. It is easier to rock out in the sandbox that is EfU when you're destroying things, creating havoc, because they require significantly less DM attention and more PC interaction than the opposite- the goodly quality of building, restoring, etc. So, because of the nature of EfU, evil-leaning plots are inherently easier to make awesome, thus gaining support from players, DMs, and gaining the loot, XP, etc. that comes to such awesomeness.

So, due to an inseparable element in the nature of evil plots due to the circumstances of the game and storyline development, evil is made easier TWICE (arguably three times!).

1) It is easier to make awesome, evil plots.
2) Great rewards come to those who make awesome plots, making more awesomeness possible (and stopping them that much more challenging to opposition).
3?) Because of these first two, players who want to achieve awesomeness (particularly veterans who know how it's done), gravitate towards evil characters making evil plots even easier to accomplish. (cite: RwG's return to EfU and rapid creation of awesomeness)

Veterans seem understand this, hence their gravitation towards evil. RwG, who is just now making the big bold leap into playing goodly characters noted it and started this discussion. Thus, I disagree with the first line of your first message (and have attempted to refute it), and still heartily agree with the second line.

Notice, I'm not trying to criticize, merely analyze. EfU has always been a very dark server. Evil is everywhere, always, and a constant threat. Orcs, Nightrisers, drow, spiders, Montezzi rulers, big friggen shadow dragons, the Spellguard, and the list goes on. But it makes EfU all the more special, in my opinion.

[Gippy]

I think Caddies built a lot with his BANITE. I think RWG built a lot with his EVIL ROGUE. I think building has nothing to do with good, or evil, and more to do with time, inclination, and interest. I generally do not have the will to crush that I would need for a good PC. To call out evil. To rip down the edifaces they have constructed. To brutally stamp them out of existance for their crimes and  successes.

[Lansert]

The problem with "good" and "evil" in most D&D universes are the following:

1)  The assumption that good and evil are always balanced when, let's face it, their not.
2)  Even *if* good will eventually win in the end people assume that good will always win over evil, or that people who fight evil people are good.
3)  People assume that good guys and bad guys know the other's alignment and will try killing each other and/or preparing to kill each other.  This is *NOT* Starcraft people, you cannot build up your forces in lightning speed and know automatically where the enemy is and then go back an' forth with the killing.
4)  Just because some one says they're good does not make them good.  (I'd like to see evil people talking about "Doing the Right Thing")
5)  Good guys work together, bad guys work together too, or that's what we'd like to believe.  But we all know that isn't the case.
6)  Lawful-Good means Lawful-Stupid, and that Chaotic-Evil means Obviously-Crazy.
7)  Beings and creatures born on the material plane can be born evil, such as orcs and gobbos, but cannot be born good.  Of course the idea that you're born evil on a True-Neutral plane is silly.

Really to me good means that not only are you willing to care for your family and close friends, but you're willing to care for complete strangers too.  That you're willing to show love or compassion even to those who hate you, but not expose yourself too much to danger.  And for me evil means that, sure you're willing to care for you family and close friends (or maybe not) but you really don't care who you hurt when accomplishing your goals.  Evil people can have redeeming qualities too you know.

[Garem]

Meh, I was using the term loosely, Gip, not so literally. Then again, even when evil builds, it's typically not for a constructive reason. In fact, I would say only very, very rarely do evil actions have constructive (intentional) outcomes. Evil laws break the fabric of society bit by bit. Evil societies/gangs/units tend to build their coalitions for the sake of self-empowerment; not necessarily constructive growth of the community. You are correct, of course, that good can be destructive in many ways. But never for the sake of destruction, it is ultimately for the "greater good" or something more specific and constructive.

[The Beggar]

Remember in DnD that:

Good is loving puppies, petting kittens, and having unicorns lick your face while sniffing flowers.

Evil is puppy chucking, kitten tossing, and stomping on the flowers while beating the dead unicorn you just disembowled.

Neutrals punch the good for picking the flowers to sniff, but run from the evil because they are so much cooler. And leet.

[Hashif]

"Good" is the opposite of "Evil". That's how I see it. There is not necessarily balance; otherwise, why would Druids exist? However, there is opposition, conflict, and the attempt to balance. Both Good and Evil exist naturally, and one relies on the other to exist at all. In my opinion, there is no clear definition. To quote Kevin Spacey in K-Pax: "Every being in the universe knows right from wrong." Therefore, isn't Good the action taken against Wrong, and Evil the action taken against Right?

[PanamaLane]

If you're going to go whip out your Joseph Butler, then I'm just going to Immanuel Kant you till you stop.

Are we really trying to define what is good and what is evil? Hell of an undertaking!

[lovethesuit]

Hashif, you sound like your posters. so lol

Pancake, he's trying to stop, but he Kant!

This calls for moth. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to post moth. Simply imagine moth. Right here.

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[DangerousDan]

Lovethesuit, you are perilously close to being banned.

[Kiaring]

Good can and should be proactive. "Proactive evil" more often than not implies characters getting together and planning to destroy things, or build things that will lead to the destruction of others (such as a baron and his lieutenants planning to form a government that will slowly erode the freedom of the people). "Proactive good", in this vein, means that characters will get together and try to build things. Build a shelter, build an adventuring company that actively champions goodly goals. Build a government, build an inn, build a boat, build a Knightly Order, build a circle of mages, build up people's hopes and dreams.

By doing this you can easily throw evil into a 'reactive role'. This discussion, to me at least, ends as it always does. Good and evil in EfU undergo cycles. It might seem hard to be proactive now, but as soon as things 'click', evil might be sent reeling, tail tucked between its legs, and good will be allowed to build and flourish however they please.

Cycles, man.

[Lansert]

I should have pointed out earlier that Good and Evil really aren't opposites (gasp).

On one hand you have a person who is good or does good things, they do it for the sake of other people, not just themselves and close friends/family.  However good people do try to stop evil actions from accruing as well, not just helping those already in harms way.  But this does not mean that good cannot exist without evil, it means good cannot exist without the knowledge of evil, there is a difference.

But Evil people, or those who do evil deeds, do so not because "The devil made me" or, "I'm Evil!  Look at my mighty L337 skillz!  MUHAHAHAHAHA!"  They do evil actions because they know the difference between good and evil and don't care.  They may not go out of their way to screw people over but if they hurt some people on their way to ambition than ohh well.  Some do find people to ruin for their own gain, but it is more likely that they just don't care.

On the subject of not caring and D&D, Neutral.  Even Neutral people care, a little, for the most part they help other people when it isn't a great inconvenience to themselves but when things start getting hard they might bail out.  On the other hand, they might perform minor sins if they figure it won't hurt other people too much, but have limits as to how far they would go.

When it comes to good and evil it's like (and I hate myself for this comparison) Light and Darkness.  Darkness is -not- the opposite of light, it is the absence.  So Evil is not the opposite of morality, but the lack their of.  This is like saying 0 is the opposite of 100 when we all know that -100 is the opposite of 100, and 0 is nothing, literally.  I mean have you looked at the numbering system for alignments in NWN?  100 means you're super Good, and 0 means you're super Evil.  0 is not Neutral and there is no such things as -100, or any negative numbers.