HP

[efuincarnate]

I won't pretend to understand the  mechanics in this thread, but if it helps with the examples, I had a wizard with a 8 con, who regularly rolled 1 hp for level advancement, giving him 11 hp at level 5. Not sure how the mechanics break down, but he was one gimped Arcanist.

[PanamaLane]

I take it all back, I've been crunching numbers and exile you were completely right. The efficiency is entirely dependent on the con score, not the class. With that being the case, I retract this suggestion on the basis that math works and there is no such thing as luck. One gets the hand they are dealt.

But still, max hps would be sweet!

<_<

[9lives]

efuincarnate, the modifiers are applied after the roll - So you were rolling the minimum 2, but then that was dropped down to a 1 from your low CON.

[ExileStrife]

Low HD classes will be closer to their maximum possible HP than the high HD classes, that is definitely true.  If we give max HP, it will benefit higher HD classes more than lower HD classes, since their gains will be much greater because they are further away from their potential max.  Why do this?  Like I mentioned before, it would be equivalent to leaving the system as it is and giving barbarians 2 free Toughness feats, fighters 1.5 Toughness, clerics 1 Toughness, and rogues .5 Toughness.

I want to walk through your the example you made in your first post (however correcting it).

A 20 con barbarian will get between 11 and 17 HP per level.
A 10 con fighter will get between 5 and 10 HP per level.

Yes, the fighter does technically have a better chance to be closer to max HP.  He will get that 10 20% of the time, and the barbarian will get that 17 only 16.7% of the time.  Why is that important, however?  At level 10, we'll expect the fighter to have 75 HP and the barbarian to have a whopping 140 HP.  Yes, it is possible for the fighter to end up with 100 HP and the barbarian to end up with meager 134 HP (remember the first four levels are already fixed at max), but that will only happen for the fighter .20^6=.0064% of the time and for the barbarian only .167^6=0021% of the time.

This argument isn't getting through to me.

[ExileStrife]

How did I manage to take 30+ minutes to write this post and not see your response?  T_T

[Tyrael]

This makes my head hurt...

[PanamaLane]

LVL 10 CHARACTER

---------d4------------d6--------------d8---------------d10--------------d12--------
Con-HP/Max/Eff---HP/Max/Eff-----Hp/Max/Eff-----HP/Max/Eff------HP/Max/Eff-----
10- 30/40(75%)_45/60 (75%)__60/80 (75%)__75/100 (75%)__90/120 (75%)
12- 40/50(80%)_55/70 (78%)__70/90 (78%)__85/110 (77%)__100/130 (77%)
14- 50/60(83%)_65/90 (81%)__80/100(80%)_95/120 (79%)__110/140 (79%)
16- 60/70(86%)_75/90 (83%)__90/110(82%)_105/130 (81%)_120/150 (80%)
18- 70/80(87%)______________________________________130/160 (81%)
_____________________________________________________________________



A little chart to confuse anyone still paying attention. The HP is your average and the Max is your, well, your max. It does show that at lower HD's and higher Cons you do get a very, very slight advantage then your counterparts with higher HD's and higher Cons. In the end it amounts to at most a 6% difference, and that's between a 70hp mage and a 130 Barb. So, yeah, the system works, but it still sucks when it doesn't work for you. Such is life, eh?

[Nihm]

First three, not four levels, get max hp.  The difference luck makes grows the higher level you become.
 
I think the first three levels should continue getting max, the next three get 75% plus Con mod, and the ones after that get 50% plus Con mod.
 
That way people don't have to feel cheated when their 14 con barbarian gets 8 hp a level after three when the other guy lucks out and gets 12 per level with only ten Con.  It doesn't balance and it doesn't average.  You can consistently get low hp roll level after level.  Your chances of getting a low roll are always the same no matter if your last roll was low or not.  
 
If this was in effect (no idea if scripting it is easy or not) then people with higher consitution would actually be assured of having more hp than their low constitution counterparts, instead of having a fickle chance at getting more, maybe, if the dice are kind.  As it is, you can load points into Constitution and effectively still get a crap deal on hp, whereas the benefits of the other stats are fixed.

[Letsplayforfun]

Definitely not in favor of this.

All damage spells will be even more useless if every one has max HP. Not even mentionning weapon balancing. All this will do in the end is give more hp to warriors and barbarians, which are already powerful as is.

Personnaly, i'd settle for minimum or average hp for everyone if anything was to be done about this hp issue, as well as deleting the max hp until lvl3 that is already in place.

Beside the technical aspect, we're forgetting the funny side of randomness. It's a dice roll game, after all.

[Jasede]

Very strongly in favor of max HP for everyone; that'll encourage the sweet straight Fighters and Barbarians you see too little. At least I do.

If you PVP with direct damage... meh, whatever. ILS will still be good; but you're supposed to first disable your enemy anyway. I /like/ how direct damage wizards tend to suck unless meticulously played, it's not Final Fantasy; it's Wizardry 8 where you definitely want to use Itching Skin and Paralyze way more than Magic Missile or Fireball.

[lovethesuit]

:rolleyes: Oh Panama and his 75 per cent solution.

[Cruzel]

You guys are dumb. Max hp 90% of the time. Anything less and you suck.

There are also (OTHER) modifiers in the NWN engine that affect your HP roll. They shouldn't, but they do. If you guys were not such powergamers, you would have higher HP rolls.

[Egon the Monkey]

Explain, oh great Cruzel :P.
Just for comparison, I had an epidemiology exam yesterday. It was less complicated than this thread.

[tooh]

why all this paranoia about balance and equilibrium ?
The classes and races HAVE diferent rules and progressions.
Most genious at random may prefer alter the odds.  why?
EFUA is Toril not Nemedia.

[PanamaLane]

75% solution? The chart is the way it is, not the way it should be, imo. But, honestly, the math does work. Law of averages should balance over time despite a -very- slight advantage to your lower HD high Con characters. I did find it interesting to note that with a 10con you should average 75% of your max no matter the class. So, Musachi was partly correct after all.

Still outside the math, it does suck a lot to roll min HP and I still think its just too darn important to leave up to a single dice roll. Rolling min three times in a row, for example, as a front liner is often a death sentence. Which might be a blessing in disguise, because you get to re-roll your HP, but still, who wants to die in order to do that?

But whatever, not altering it at all is still a "fair" system, but being lucky helps. I'm the most unlucky person I know. In 6 HP dice rolls, I've rolled 4 mins and never rolled over an 8 (my range being 7-12). By the last time, I started to think something was fishy, and hence this thread. But alas, no fishiness, just plain old bad luck. Drat! But hey, maybe karma will balance elsewhere, right?