Have fun damnit!

[AKMatt]

Paha Poika's advice is really excellent and people should consider it carefully.  One of the most liberating things on EfU is to realize it doesn't matter too much if you fugue.  You can pursue most agendas easily without levels beyond five, with the obvious exception of being a badass.  Since most people do not ever have a chance to look badass just looping the same three quests over and over and occasionally emoting, "Grr, I deserve more stuff" this is probably not an issue.

You don't need to be reckless, and that's not what I'm saying, of course.  But EfU is a lot more fun when you're doing dangerous stuff.  Every single one of my PCs that succeeded did so off the back of dozens of tallies on my fugue plane punchcard (one of my PCs even had such a thing for a shortwhile, thanks to some April Fool's shenanigans).

I think there's a lot of fear of fugue visits that shouldn't really have a place on EFU.  Yeah, they're bad, but you can get back to 6 in a day anyway.

Similarly, the worst consequence of a PC permanently dying is missing out on whatever cool scene you had planned for their likely death.  Since every PC eventually dies or fades into obscurity, what people should be aiming for first and foremost is to make a memorable scene.

[Eddie Walker]

Honestly, if a group was running a difficult quest, or one I've never been on before, I'll generally tag along if I've got the time and nothing against it IC, I don't honestly care all that much about dying, see point below.

Seeing as I regularly do curse removal, losing xp from fuguing doesn't really scare me, it's the reorganising inventory after death.  There is nothing to me, that I loath then to have go through and resort my pack then having to do it twice in one sitting.

Supplies, gold, xp all come and go really, it's more a matter of not having the time or simply not having the IC inclination to go along, when there is nothing more that I want to do then go, do some dangerous or different quests (so long as they don't involve perm death, I've a dislike for such most of the time, though I enjoyed my last one).

That might just be me though.

[NecropolisV]

Don't get me wrong, nothing i enjoy more than going out and discovering something purely epic with an equally epic challenge, heck i even went into the soul archive for a quest when told chances of death are high :P i practice alchemy on a daily basis despite how many levels ive lost to failed experiments, i go do gnolls and ToM knowing that everytime i go despite how big a group i lose a level or two(when higher level). BUT i cannot stand going out and adventuring the isle, simply because its not just a level or two, its not just dieing and getting back up. You die out there no ones coming to save you likely(specially if evil). There is no respawning due to the fact you will just get ganked again once you get back up. Your only option is to log off and wait for a DM to move the enemys, or to respawn and lose all your items.
 
Now i understand needing a group a big one at that maybe. But if they all die, to some crazy assassin vines spawns like i have who appear out of nowhere with no warning and paralyze your whole group its all over. It would take a legitely high level group to go adventuring out there, and its not easy getting high level either >.> i could play it 100% safe and no more alchemy, do only the easiest quests every reset grind that xp to 7th or 8th and be completely fine to g o adventuring in a group, but i wont. Its not fun and its poor RP. But hey, everyone has their own methods :P
 
In the end, my suggestion: if you want the majority of people(majority is low level) to go on those hard adventures, you gotta make the reward always worth the risk. the risk is pretty high, but what is the reward for uncovering and exploring those ancient ruins. I once encountered a powerful demon, who was played by a DM. It was some pretty dramatic and fun roll play and in the end kayla was dead and vilindilieth was sworn to her service through a blood oath. Though i managed to get kayla out, well a piece of her. And had to pay 4k to see her raised. I got nothing out of that adventure except loss.. i was bummed out, but at least had fun. Still a little cool thing would have been nice to have from such a risky roll play.

[Egon the Monkey]

"You can pursue most agendas easily without levels beyond five, with the obvious exception of being a badass."

Well, that's true, you can do a lot with a low level PC that's a good organiser, as RwG and his revolving door to Kelemvor prove. However, there's also the desire to be well armed enough to stop a badass PC from rolling your group, as "A bunch of low level mates" isn't as good a resource as one really tough PC unless you get the drop on them or are very well organised. On a similar note, when a crazy DM events turns up, you want to feel you can actually get through it with your PC in one piece.

The thing is, I would really rather go questing because it's fun and be able to get resources another way. I don't want to be thinking "*sigh*, better go and spam ToM so that we've got CSW so that the next time we run into Joe Barb he won't crush us". Back when random encounters were more common and profitable, I ran a PC who managed to get much of his money out of locating and breaking into them.

As a suggestion to get PCs out in the wilderness and dangerous areas, introduce reasons to do so that don't require a DM. Players know OOC what is where, so there's not that much mystery in exploring and less entertainment value as a result.It's especially true if you've found server lore that requires a DM to get any more out of in order to investigate the place.

I know EfU deliberately makes wilderness monsters have poor drops so people don't "farm" them, but there are other slight incentives to patrol places. The randomly spawning fruit trees, random encounters, hero mob loot. I'd suggest putting more rewards or consequences for exploring in, so that without a DM you can feel like you have still accomplished something. If you keep exploring but never get any response to it it can feel like wasted effort. On the other hand if you play a wilds PC, the resource gathering quest does get yu going looking for stuff:

• Things outside the safe areas that offer good Withering reduction and are worth heading out to find.
• Stuff that will either grant decent XP or faction or general rewards to kill, so it's worth getting a squad to go look for. Like the Muster Bounties but more general. Possibly something tied to the Withering that will reduce the Withering level of an area for the reset if killed?
• Recycle some removed quests to ones that start in Random Encounter Areas.
• Herb plants that respawn like fruit trees do, to reduce reliance on gardens that just get robbed, and encourage exploring for resources.
• More skill checks or information placeables. If you can get information out of a placeable without a DM present, you can feel like you're getting somewhere, even if you have to come back with an expert, which is more RP. Especially if it's not just Lore you need but Search, Strength to move a boulder etc.

If the server offers things to do as a group that aren't always in the same location, it can break a rut.

[The Old Hack]

"You can pursue most agendas easily without levels beyond five, with the obvious exception of being a badass."

Meh. I got told that it was my own fault Kara got invis ganked and executed because there were defenses against an invis gank. Defenses I normally used but no longer had available due to level loss. Sometimes I feel that getting involved in server and PC conflict with a non-badass character is suicide. You will forgive me for not being eager to experience level loss after losing two characters to an invis gank they could no longer defend themselves against. (Two completely separate events, mind you, and the older one was totally awesome because it was committed by a single badass character in the face of Stygians, Militia and half a dozen other PCs.)

My point being, no matter what people claim, if you try to 'rock the server', levels will matter.

[SkillFocuspwn]

Just don't worry so much about dying! I die all the time, and have died in a lot of the same situations as the old hack, and I can tell you it's great fun.

[Calimport Smoke]

I think very few people die to invis ganks, and when they do, usually they have a lot of warning and a few options to not die if they back down from pursuing PvP conflict with the ganker.

[The Old Hack]

Just don't worry so much about dying! I die all the time, and have died in a lot of the same situations as the old hack, and I can tell you it's great fun.

Really? *scratches head* I didn't even notice your characters dying there. I honestly thought I was alone both times.

[Jayde Moon]

I'm sure he meant 'same types' of situations, you goon! :D

[VanillaPudding]

I didn't read over any of the replies, but I will say that the high-end quests have not been overly rewarding for quite a while. Many of them did not change for years now, excluding lesser XP rewards or other "nerfs", while the overall strength of PCs has gone down. (Fewer levels in general, less "loot").

Furthermore, doing these quests did often draw the attention for spice and other things, and that in itself was often even worse due to the openly admitted fact that rewards were less common these days, more supplies were drained, and xp was rather sparsely handed out. Overall, you often lost more than you gained by doing them while also risking losing levels on your character, something that can mean weeks of playtime for some people.

These factors created the "grind" mentality that made people feel safe in doing the quick and easy quests rather than getting out there and doing things that are more dangerous.

[River Walker]

After reading this thread a few times, I think it's important to point out that not everyone has the same idea of what's fun. I've seen several people in this thread try to persuade others to adopt their style of gameplay, and you know what? If I didn't think what I was already doing was fun then I wouldn't be doing it.

I'm also not the only one who is getting some mixed messages here. We're told on the one hand that DMs don't want to see optimized builds, then on the other hand we're told that we need to be taking on the hardest quests on the server. We are told to play our weaknesses, but then we get punished mercilessly for having those same weaknesses. The PCs who are "optimized for role-play" are always the first ones to fugue on quests, and usually the first ones to abandon a PC after their 10th justifiably frustrating death.

My answer to this has been to simply do what's fun for me and ignore what everybody else wants. I would love to, for instance, take an asthmatic pegleg priest of Oghma into the Underdark to research Dunwarren, but I also know that a DM's attention is inevitably going to come included with a mob swarm designed to completely wipe my party (EDIT: I don't consider this necessarily a bad thing), with me being the first one to go. As such, my "role-play builds" are always designed to survive, because they have to be.

That's why I think you see a lot of these weaker builds hanging around in town so much. It's a hell of a lot more fun than hanging around in the Fugue.

[SN]

Hi.

I have been gone for several months from EFU... If I recall correct, the moment I bailed was when Gaeseric took the fall from the cliff. No idea how long ago was that.

Managed to resurface briefly, but I gave up, due to simply lack of time.

Now I'm back, and saw this post, decided to chip in my 2 polish zlotys, eventhough I did not bother to read every single response, so apologies if I will be repeating something.

------------


EFU.. - I don't know, as I have not experienced it other than some brief, insignificant adventures.


------------


EFU:A. - Honestly - I loved EFU:A more than I love EFU:M. I spent so many great moments there that I can not even begin to count them.
Moments of intense laughter, moments of intense fear, moments of true EPICNESS (Caps intended), and a moments when I really, really cried. The kinds of tears that you get when reading/experiencing something profoundly moving from the storypoint of view.

I drew so many inspirations from the amazing storytelling of the DM's (and players) in EFU:A that I have even shamelessly stolen some ideas for my PnP campaigns. Hells, I even ran a whole campaign based on Ymph.


(Not sure if the below is in chronological order, hey, it's been a long ride)

----

I remember the mad adventure Illuminaughty ran for my first PC here, a dwarven cleric with 8 CHA. I had no clue about stuff back then. But the sheer "monthypython-ness" of it blew me off the chair.
Flying Shark Island. He's probably not reading it now, but hey. Thanks man. You are truly sick in the head. In the good meaning of it.

----

I remember my conversation with Craddock as my Cyricist atop the  Ziggurat which I still have screenshots of and treasure every moment of  it. The amount of metaphores, the cloak & dagger "movie-ness" of  it.  Hats of, Caddies.

----

I remember the amazing dialogues I had with Listen in Silence (man, where are you) when playing a duo of Barbarians with MN. Then came Vladislak Charabo and blown me away. I did not have any problem dying with that PC when storming the Ziggurat Gates and several barbarian PC's hitting the RAGE button at the same time. That was EPIC. Caps intended, again.

----

I fell in love with what is commonly considered NATURE on EFU. I apped for a Wild Dwarf and joined the Steward faction and the amount of lore I uncovered, thanks to Howland, thanks to Nuke, thanks to Mort, thanks to Fleeting Heart and thanks to those I can not remember.

It was a constant learning experience, from the EFU-lore point of view. And each tidbit blown my socks off. I remember some white chick who appeared in front of a bunch PC's at the Heart of Winter and I sent a tell to Mort that I'm looking at her true a gem of True Seeing.

Got a response: "You see an ancient dragon, covered in mist, standing in front of you."

I had no OOC knowledge whatsoever of what the G-chick was before that. It was like.. "Oh shit. This is amazing."

Then came Orgeribbit to my Wild Dwarf's life. Man, I learned how to PQ by then. And I also learned MUCH of savoir-vivre from Orgeribbit's player back then (Hats of, buddy). Again, the story blown me away. And I did SUnken Enclave for the first time, spiced too. Amazing place. Did not have time then to uncover the lore buried.. But that came later.

There was Quin Steel. That says it all.

Then came DangerousDan and his whathisname dude who went out on a Tree-Burning spree. Then came an epic crawl to the Underdark to bring Leged back. We crushed the Way, got him back, told him about stuff going topside and he came back with us. We literally RAN up the Way (dont think it took more than 15 minutes to get back up) to make it in time for the event... which resulted in--

-the death of my Wild Dwarf and MN's Forest Gnome. The sheer dramatism of that scene caused me to cry. Good tears. This kind of tears which you cry when you read a profoundly sad and at the same time - good scene.

----

I fell in love with Gazers then. I love these midgets. Whoever came up with the idea of the race as a whole deserves to rest on a tropical island without needing to earn money 'till the rest of his/hers lives.

So I apped for Sardine. Yes, Nuke, I know - I didnt do much at some point aside of crushing Coral Cove over and over and over and over again. But it was FUN. It was more than fun - it was amazing to experience the ridiculous amount of crush a well-balanced team can deliver.
There was the Order vs Nature conflict. There was Johannes and his purple tentacles from outer space. There was Sardine and 'White Beard' alliance (Badcompany, hats off, again) which some people considered as 'forced' and 'OOC' and not making any sense at all. Believe what you will, there was a profound bond back there. And it was amazing.

There was Jeneil - hope the player is still doing well.

There was Kashyapi (you again) and Aieya (whoever you were, I never learned, you were amazing) ... and aside of the truly top-of-the shelf storytelling, which I am not going to remind here- who needs to know, knows - there was also the 'mechanical' part of it - traveling with a friendly PC LORE-MASTER.. able to decipher anything everywhere. Amazing. And again - inspiring.

Yes, there was also Maw'kii. Yes, Griff, I remember you, you retard.

There were so many epic moments on Sardine that I can not even start to list them all, or the forum would run out of HDD space.

Of course, there were many disappointments. And of course, there were EPIC fuck ups on my end, too (or disappointments for the DM crew from my end). Resulting in getting one of my favorite characters retired. I so regret being a dumb piece of shit and stealing that loaf of bread.

----

Jumping through a few PC's (must of course remember boulder-tossing into the face of a prisoner of the Order as Thorgrimm Modruvellir.. Taking part in killing Shevorth (EPIC) - 'The End Run' and so on..)...


.. I come to the Croaking_Opera  - Gaxthoe. My Frog tribe lore-master (inspired by magic mushrooms, shpongle and an insatiable lust for EFU Lore). I had the utmost honor of experiencing the end of EFU:A (and in a sense - having my few cents in actually causing it).

I do not believe there is a font big enough to write "EPIC" about what I experienced on Frog, and trust me - those were not the mushrooms speaking.
The overwhelming amount of Lore uncovered on this PC.. In its' own, shpongly way.. the overwhelming amount of Lore EXPERIENCED on this PC.. Being in the very, very middle of it all..

Well. I do not believe (and I hope to be wrong!) that there will be anything on EFU that can beat this. I urge you to play a gazer, I left a lot on the Gazer forums.

Hell - Frog was the first PC to actually wither before withering was even implemented. How about that, huh?

The only regret I have about Frog, is that I ran out of free time at  some point and never managed to 'finish' the PC and had to disappear  from the EFU world and not see the actual transition from EFU;A to EFU:M - and judging by the screenshots I saw - once again, there's no font big enough to write 'EPIC'.


------------



And then came..


EFU:M. - Well. I could not be as active as I was during the EFU:A times, but I can say a couple things from what I experienced.
The above was gone (after all, it's a new chapter, no?).. but with the EFU:A chapter gone, I think the size of the EPIC font was .. smaller.
Why?


I believe there were several factors at work here:


1.) After the climax of EFU:A, well - it's obvious that things should 'slow' and 'calm' down.


----


2.) Don't get this as an insult or an offense, as I know some people take stuff very personally here (me included), as an assault on themselves-
I believe the focus shifted from the amazing story-telling towards constant mechanical improvement of the setting.

Now - is this a bad thing?
I can wholeheartedly say - yes (though I am not neglecting an AMAZING amount of work and effort done.)
Why?
Because it became sterile as a hospital. Not sure if this is a valid English metaphore (most certainly works in my native scum tongue).
To use an example:
It's like comparing the old TV series "Robin of Sherwood" from the mid-eighties to the BBC TV series "Robin Hood" from 2006.
Because of the focus on all the fancy lights, big boobs, perfect make up, the legend has lost its' magic.

Hope this makes sense.


----


Let's get more mechanical now -
3.) Centralization:  in EFU:M there is one little hamlet where everybody clogs in the square, because:
- it is safe
- there's nowhere else to go (civilization).
- there's no withering (using bold, as I will come back to this later) there

In EFU:A, the 'city' was big. There was the main Zig. There was the the squat. There was the docks. There was the gates. There was so much to do around the city, so many places to hide (esp. when the in-between areas have been added).
In EFU:M we have Mistlocke (and Sis Liman, but screw that, it's far away. And there's withering there too). Mistlocke itself - a tiny hamlet. Which covers a huge area, but in fact - it's much smaller than that. It's just that tiny square surrounded by a bunch of buildings in a huge area.
And well.. That's just Mistlocke. There's nothing else that is 'safe' to go to.


----


4.) Withering:
Yes, the Withering. Amazing concept, amazing idea. Amazing mechanics.
Yet.. implementation of the Withering had a psychological effect on the playerbase. It's this constant SOMETHING VERY BAD [SVB] that hangs above your PC like a dark cloud. It's this SVB which constantly hurts your PC, if you are exposed to it. So it is only natural for the PC's to stay away from it. If one wants to scheme with a bunch of PC's and discuss the plans for taking over Mistlocke or seducing Muskroot - you go to a place where you can safely 'stand' in one spot for 3 hours and RP 'passively'. Without that SVB having constant effect on your PC.

So people go and stay in Mistlocke/Shroud.

It's even worse for some faction PC's - say Stargazers, say some scum who want to set their base of operation for kidnapping virgins in Sis Liman - their faction areas are constantly hurting their PC's. Just chilling there gives that SVB to their PC's. Why chill there, then, if you can chill somewhere without the SVB.

Now - of course there are ways to keep it in check. Hey, I actually play many (most?) 'nature' PC's, so I'm chilling around the Withered areas most of the time. Keeping it at check isn't hard, but it requires a lot of work. It requires resources. It requires time to acquire these resources. And these resources are fastest and easiest acquired through easy quests in areas without the SVB.

So everything goes back to the Withering- scaring the shit out of people. Especially new players.
Boy, I was astounded quite recently, when I rolled out with a group to do the Gnoll quest, and after the completion, the group just RAN back to the Shroud, shouting vague words about SVB.

I think it's unhealthy and the effect it has on people (players, not PC's) is hurting the server.
Solutions? I don't know, really. Push the plots forward. Help/guide folk into finding a cure. Or at least slow it down. Introduce more easy solutions of getting rid of it (or getting immune to it?). No clue.
Withering is a bit of a dead end (apologies, couldn't resist the pun). Pushes back people and stops them from doing, what they want to be doing.
I'd really get rid of it/work some MEGA-PLOT to make the cure happen.

Unless you folks got it all planned out and want it to stay, as you want a full-circle to happen and the next chapter will be called:
Escape TO the Underdark.


----


5.) Conflict. Conflict is good, yes. But I am getting a feeling that somewhere at the end of EFU:A and the whole EFU:M the focus on conflict derailed from 'healthy' conflict to 'conflict at all costs' as it keeps the game running.
Conflict is great, as it makes people gather in groups. Conflict makes that people can sustain themselves with fun without the need for a DM to run an elaborate plot - players do those themselves.
And well - humans like conflict in general (what a retarded race) - as they like to show off. Sports, beating the crap out of another, whatever.
But it's not 'conflict' or 'nothing at all'.
One of the first things I've noticed after I came back was that everyone was going mad talking about 'blood for the tree'.
I went to that tree (Marcail) and thought - hey, fun. I can come here and donate my PC's blood here to heal the island. So I tried that.
 ..

Wait, what?

The tree wants me to PvP people and take their blood? It won't accept free donors?
Eventhough the idea is great, it once again - is 'conflict at all costs'.
Go, children, beat the crap out of as many you can and as often as you can and then bring me their blood.
Sure, might stir some interesting concepts.
Some.

But from the outside, it's like watching Benny Hill being chased around by a horde of people with syringes. (God, I can hear that music in my head now).

Once again - Conflict is good. Forces of Good vs Evil and all the cliches. And non-cliches.
But PC vs PC conflict should NOT be the focus EFU as the whole.
The MEGA-plots should be.
IMHO.


----


... Well, Im being dragged away from the computer now - I might come back and write something more later (just noticed that over an hour passed since I started writing)..

Not sure if you will read this whole, not sure if I wrote BS or not - but this is my perspective.

Also - I spoke only of negatives of EFU;M but that was the idea - it is still an AMAZING setting. But it got derailed a bit . And it feels a bit as a post-modern "everything was already done/said".

I love you EFU. And I missed you much. And yes, Im back. And yes, at some point in near future I might app for a Gazer again.

Peace out.

[Numos]

What I love about EFU is how richly detailed the module is, and the plethora of secrets and lore that are out there if you're paying attention and willing to explore.

What I also like is that the unforgiving death systems makes people behave a little more realistically. You don't want to bring along a dwarf muttering inanely about cyric for fear he might flee at the first sign of trouble, run around in circles attracting more monsters, or back-stab you and take your stuff. And you might not want to explore every foreboding ruin unless you have have a planned expedition. Individually these are both very positive things, in my mind, but the fact death is so unforgiving is almost a guarantee that a lot of the module's content will go unappreciated (much to the dismay of builders, I'm sure). So you end up with the following situation:

1) Groups of higher-level and more established characters, with networks of friends and more connections, are able to go out with well-organized groups and see the world. Even if you don't succeed it can still be a lot of fun:
-Your character gets to interact with people who are meaningful to their story.
-Even if you permanently die, its at least a memorable scene to throw up on the screenshot thread.

2) The greater majority of lesser-etablished characters who will usually adventure with random people end up doing the Poisoned Well. There's not much reason to go out if your expedition has such a small chance of success. No matter how you look at it, its not fun:
-You'll end up losing experience and supplies with no gain.
-You won't learn anything.
-You don't have much time to roleplay or develop your character along the way because everyone is in such a big rush.

Characters do need to lose once in a while, its what makes victory so sweet, but given the current setup it more or less evokes the feeling you've just wasted an hour of your life when an expedition fails.

On the flip side I think if you made losses less punitive, success wouldn't be as rewarding.

[The Old Hack]

Boy, I was astounded quite recently, when I rolled out with a group to do the Gnoll quest, and after the completion, the group just RAN back to the Shroud, shouting vague words about SVB.

OK. I freely admit that I am hardly the most intelligent person on the planet. Even so, this is the second time I have heard people complain about a group of adventurers which did not wish to:

-- stand around gossiping about inanities while their innards slowly gets turned to mush by the most vicious, unforgiving curse ever heard of

-- lay out a ton of treasure and argue about who gets what, still in the same cursed area, while being vulnerable to 1) hostile adventurers and 2) hostile denizens of the area (assassin vines, stonehand giants, Nightriser patrols, to mention just three potentially lethal threats that can kill most people without breaking a sweat)

I am really sorry but somehow I am not seeing exactly what the intelligent part of the above is, either ICly or OOCly. I have played characters who were less concerned about the curse than others. But conversely, I also feel I should be allowed to play a character who is terrified of it to the point that she blows all her gold on cures as soon as she starts showing even mild symptoms of Withering. And I do not see how it makes me a bad roleplayer when said character prods her group into moving because she is afraid of the curse and does not like to be pulverised by giants or sucked dry by vines.

~tOH.

[SN]

That is because you missed the whole point of my statement, TOH.

To put it down blunt and simple:
I am not saying that staying the big F out of SVB is wrong from either IC or OOC standpoint.
It's perfectly legitimate to not want to be exposed to something that turns you into a drooling zombie.

What I was saying, is that SVB is actually causing and in fact - encouraging this sort of behavior. Which then translates onto various aspects of EFU as a whole:
"Hey, why do I do that quest in a HEAVILY withered area, if I can do two, closer, and safer and I ain't gonna rot?"
"Hey, screw talking, let's run through the whole server to get from point A to B and avoid unnecessary talking [RP] to speed it up and rot less"

.. etc, etc.

You dig, bro?
As I pointed out somewhere - don't take stuff personal.

This topic was also not for arguing who's a good RP'er and who's a bad RP'er.

To put it in three simple words:
It. Kills. Mood.