PvP Escalation / Etiquette Reminder

[Mort]

I only caught the tail end of the initial event, but I’ll resume it here. A group of PCs with devouts attacked a group of PCs harboring a demonspawn. Both groups had very few interactions together. They had certainly heard OF each other, but not roleplay a great deal together before. You could say they had little history, but reasons for the initiation of a battle were certainly there... What occurred afterward, however, was in my mind, a bit premature in a story development.


  PCs from one group attempted to summon a demon to sacrifice all the PCs from the other group. One of my colleagues decided, for the sake of encouraging players, to have a demon take attention to their call, and come forth. A few players were given to the demon. Thankfully, these players were seemingly fine with this as they sent me PMs stating they enjoyed the ending and were planning to sacrifice themselves in the Targan arena anyway. The rest were sent back to the village with their remaining possessionsâ€"the few that remained from the loot banquet of the victorious party.


  Let me be perfectly clear. Subduing someone does not entitle you to his life/belongings, only the story entitles you to that. What I saw developing from this event was an Arena of Team Red vs. Team blue. Escalation of PvP with 3-4 hours of battle/run and back FOR about 15 minutes of roleplay in-between. The ratio is telling...


  “They killed 2 of ours? We’ll kill FOUR of theirs! That will teach them.”


  “They killed four of ours? We’ll kill ALL of them!”


  “OH, and BURN the bodies. Mash their head in little pieces. That way resurrection is harder!” (The first time I heard this being spoken in IC terms. I cringed...)


  And so on. The bystanders and people having absolutely no tie to the initial event being absorbed in this vortex of pointless pvp making for a somewhat mediocre scene where everyone is fighting, but no one is actually sure what for except for the sake to fight. That’s what an arena server is. EFU is not an arena server. EFU is a roleplay server. Chaotic events can certainly happen, and I’m fine if they do, but good PvP Karma shouldn’t be thrown out the window as it often happens in MOB situations. Generally, most people tend to be adequate toward pvp etiquette when few people are involved, but when it gets above a number and it becomes especially more ugly.


  THAT said, I appreciated the moments of respite and the hostage negotiations.


  This phenomenon is nothing new (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation). It  propose that crowds bring a psychological state of decreased self-evaluation and decreased evaluation apprehension causing antinormative and disinhibited behavior. Deindividuation theory seeks to provide an explanation for a variety of antinormative collective behavior, such as violent crowds, lynch mobs, etc. Deindividuation theory has also been applied to genocide and been posited as an explanation for antinormative behavior online and in computer-mediated communications.


  This is very real, and you should ALWAYS try to stay true to your character despite being part of a mob.


  Some character decisions were taken, and they were questionable.  Not a lot of thought was given behind them, and I think it’s important to stay in-character and not let the OOC bloodlust of winning blind your character’s background/motives and turn you into a simplistic level 8 toon who’se part of team X.


 

• Should my character really help a demon?
• Should my character, who’se probably tired from the day, really rest to get spells and go back into fight?
• Should my character who shown no clear devotion to anything really devote to a CE ideal on a dime?

 This is a recurrent topic; and I encourage those who are confused by my post to read further. Otherwise, just take a step back and think.


 

• http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31349&highlight=blue

This one was a reminder.


 

• http://www.escapefromundeath.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=32293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

This one was not the first time the topic was approached, but a landmark debate nevertheless.


 

• http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37271&highlight=death

This one by Iron Oligarch is particularly enjoyable to read. I encourage everyone to read at least the initial post.

[Relinquish]

I've had deaths that were deemed "acceptable and fine" by DMs where the interaction was nothing more than 15 minutes with no prior interactions. It's when I hear my characters death was legitimate by a DM under circumstances like this when PvP etiquette becomes something of a joke.

[Paha]

Many have had some unfortunate situations during the years. It happens, but even if it does and it's not looked upon favorably, it would be much more trouble and confusion to attempt and roll back something that has happened, so often what happens, happens. It does not mean that it's a boon or favor to the player that did it, and they get away with it.

These kind advices are given to hopefully prevent escalation into these situations in general. Much more preferable that way.

[CakePlease]

I think some people need to read this.

[sylvyrdragon]

I'm glad to see this posted by a DM, I was getting ready to suggest we move our server from PW-Story, to PW-PvP.

[Calimport Smoke]

I am under the impression that monster PCs can be killed on sight, without prior RP. From one of these groups I see a few humans (that have participated in PvP in the past, and the deaths of other PCs ) and a lot of monsters. To me, it is reasonable that one of these groups would be killed by pretty much any sane PC on the server, and they would receive little or no clemency and be shunned even by most NPCs unless said NPCs are cyrcists. I do not get how this is "Red vs Blue" when they are a faction of killers that have actually committed crimes. It is not unreasonable for anyone to try and cut their teeth by bringing them to justice...

I think they have made the choice to play evil PCs, murderers, and the insane. They made the choice to escalate things by attacking Mistlocke itself. I do not see how they should be protected any more than monsters... They have made choices which open themselves up for PvP.

Please, inform me if I'm wrong... sometimes the RP, of like demon loving monster summoners, dictates that a PC simply be executed.

In many ways I think PCs and NPCs -don't- care as much as they should about wildly evil shit that goes on, and it ends up making criminals end up being overt and boring rather than  subtle and fearful for their lives, or overt and completely bad ass.

[Otbdfo]

I can't recall that EFUs monsters, murderers and other evil PCs have a credit of killing other people wantonly when they meet for the first time (even when they probably should try to kill and subdue most of those weaker than them in order to pursue their own goals). They often refrain from it and choose their targets carefully in order to create rivalry situations which are deeper than that. I find it a bit odd that monster/evil PCs do not have the ability to act in their nature but the players of goodly PCs are required to destroy all who are against their belief in an instant - and they have "OOC" blessing to do this. PvP courtesy can be done with style and it is especially good at the beginning of character careers when none knows each other. I am sure the goodly PCs can find many reasons not to execute every new tiefling PC they meet as evil maniac PCs have found reasons not to rob blind or kill every weak looking portal rat who has just made it's way to Old Stones.

What comes to the event itself, I did find it extremely hysteric and very hard to do anything proper as it turned into massive PvP in an insant. I am not even sure why the battle between the two groups occured nor did I know the PCs on the other group but it happened to be so that I was with the evil PCs and my allies were under attack. I participated in the ritual as well, my character wishing to pay back to the attackers but I did not expect that it would lead to such many potential sacrifices (or deaths for that matter). What escalated later on in the Mistlocke and wilderness seemed to me like a big spin of vengeance.

[Yalta]

I'm glad to see this posted by a DM, I was getting ready to suggest we move our server from PW-Story, to PW-PvP.

Completely agree. We've lost good players because they have felt that the server was more Red v's Blue, than trying to tell interesting conflict filled stories.

[Dr Dragon]

Honestly there are some points I actually disagree with in this post. Sometimes the Red, and Blue mentality is needed when your dealing with a team of demon summoners, and murderers. Anyone who aids in the profane act of sacrificing people to Demons should be well aware that what they are doing is evil, and should be given evil points.

Also saying "Lets burn the bodies so they can be prevented from getting raised?" That makes you cringe Mort? I can say with absolute certainty that when I want a pc of mine to actually murder someone they prevent a raise from occurring. Truly all throughout since the first days of EFU tons of murders were carried, and the results making it impossible to carry out a raise..........


In fact I would say your very own were rat assassin Squeelig feeding people you were paid to kill to a den of rats was a means of preventing a body from being raised.


As for a red vs blue arena server......There is paladins I cant think of a class that more encourages red vs blue then that class which is basically devoted to smiting, and thwarting characters because of an alignment. We have people killing eachother for things like faction affiliation. I would also say there is literally a red vs blue blood vs crips going on in real life. So in many ways warfare, and conflicts happen.





-The Doc

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

I think there're a lot of folk missing the point of the post.  I'm not sure everyone's read it through.  Read it again.
 
It's not that team based PvP is frowned upon, or out of the question.

It's the mob mentality that is dangerous.  Basically, he's saying (and I think rightly!) that characters should always act in character, and not simply 'go along' with whatever is the zeitgeist.  

Like... for instance.  Your character is a TN mercenary.  You see 6-7 people rush past you, and lots of people who are hostile fighting them.  I know, and have seen it happen plenty of times, that they will suddenly jump in and attack - whichever side has set the server hostile.  Have you seen this yourself?  Or been a part of it?  As a player, on this server, I am sure that in the fullness of time there WILL come a choice like this.  

Another example.  You are playing an LE Monk.  Should you be going along on a hunt for some goblin in the sewers, just because a dozen or so people have organised it through a sending?

Mob mentality - it's one of the things that EfU has definitely taught me, with regards to life.  That it is a real thing, and how difficult it is NOT to go along with the crowd, and to be your own man sometimes.

[Daemonic Daz]

I know that I will always reward a PC a lot more that goes against the flow of the majority rather than the PC who shouts the loudest in the group.

[GoBold]

I blame the Mortal Kombat override.

[lovethesuit]

I will be speaking from a more social RP background; the idea of PvP and conflict with high stakes (permanent death, or worse) was a difficult adjustment for me. I still struggle with roleplaying correctly because I fear the consequences, but at least I can now say I recognize this is an area to work on. But, that wasn't always the case.

Posts like this help me put a few things into perspective. First: it's okay to disagree. You may not be the person who would gain anything from reading this post. I, however, am. That's the view I'm talking from.

Second: if I'm in control of a situation - because that is how the dice fell - then it's up to me to take the next step forward. I have to weigh a few considerations in a relatively short span of time: what will be the most fun for everyone involved; what will tell the best story; what is fair to other players; will I end a story by making my choice; what is in-character or realistic?

That's really tough for me, because I'm used to only thinking in the first and last terms. I think about moments, scenes, and not the bigger picture. It's why, if I'm lucky, people remember my characters, but the server never does. It's in those middle concerns where we are really asking other players to buy-in to our idea of how it should go. An investment of time and effort, like leading a project and getting all your stakeholders to agree on how to go forward. I don't just mean within a faction, either; everyone you interact with and who would reasonably interact back with you.

DMs use NPC interaction and loot to give clues as to what our options are; they help to keep us from focusing too much on one of those questions and ignoring others. The reason posts like this are valuable to me is because they help me remember these questions on my own, so that next time I'm faced with a decision IC I can make the one that best fits with all considerations.

[Silverfox]

I think something to remember is that mob mentalities are a very real thing.

Even in many fantasy settings, the common folk - regardless of their personalities - gather in mobs with torches & pitchforks. I'd say it's perfectly acceptable to be swept up in a frenzied witch hunt, though there obviously must be some sense - an LE character is not going to join the Paladin-led mob seeking to put down the Banite fleeing the mob, except in extenuating circumstances.

But a lot of the points raised have been very valid, if irrelevant to the initial discussion. Red vs Blue is fine, if handled correctly. If not, then you end up with a - pardon my language - dissatisfying clusterfuck.

[Greedisgood]

I've had deaths that were deemed "acceptable and fine" by DMs where the interaction was nothing more than 15 minutes with no prior interactions. It's when I hear my characters death was legitimate by a DM under circumstances like this when PvP etiquette becomes something of a joke.

+1