PvP Escalation / Etiquette Reminder

[The Old Hack]

To chip in with my thoughts, for whatever they are worth...

Just because you have won PvP does not mean that you should feel entitled to do whatever you like to the person you have beaten. They are not loot piñatas, they are creations of a living breathing person who may have put a lot of effort into his or her character, not to mention many hours of play time. In PvP and its aftermath especially, roleplay is of paramount importance. Letting an enemy live when you could have killed him is a good way of getting a conflict going that may become lasting and of great RP value to not only you and your enemy, but also others who may become involved. And if you do intend to kill your victim, RP becomes even more important. You need to give the other guy a chance to speak her or his piece, to negotiate for life if that is what they want, or to speak some final words of defiance at least.

Obviously, this cuts both ways. If you have been defeated, RP is critical if you want to live. Speaking words of defiance may be in character for you, but it is possible to do so without adding insults, slurs or threats to the person who has you at her or his mercy. But if you just spew reams of obscenities at them instead, well, expect your survival chances to plummet like the meteor in Armageddon. And if your person is a more ordinary character who is willing to negotiate, argue or beg for her/his life, all the better.

During the time I played Kara Szantovich I happened to be in the role of captor or victor in PvP more often than on any other character of mine. Time after time I was placed in situations where what I did could mean life or death for another player's character. As a member of the Muster who was often listened to and put in charge of prisoners, I had to make sure that the RP for these prisoners was satisfying and that they did not feel like they were just being kicked around. Because with the state of law in Mistlocke, I frankly never knew if they were going to live or die, so it became necessary for me to do it with care with every one. (This does not mean being nice to everyone, just RP fairly with everyone!)

Also, even when dragging condemned prisoners along to their executions, we (PCs and DMs both) tried to do it in a way to allow escape attempts (several of these being successful), pleas for clemency (some of these successful as well) or dramatic last speeches. Last words are especially important when your character is about to go down; it rarely hurts to ask someone if they have some of these once you have made up your mind to kill.

But to finish with the other side: in those cases where I have killed other PCs, I have nearly always first roleplayed with them while they were subdued. And in nearly every case, I only killed those who talked themselves into their grave. I am not saying that PCs only ever get killed for mouthing off to people who beat them, just that it is a great contribution to the death counts of PCs. Two examples: one, a duel with a guy who had repeatedly insulted my character's lord and master. I won and was about to walk off with a warning when the guy 1) repeats his original insult and 2) called me a whore. My character was rather tense due to the impending doomsday of H'bala, decided that enough was enough and chopped the guy's head off. I left the corpse behind, figuring that if he had any friends, they could raise him. Two, a Stargazer I chased in the woods. We fought, I won, I tried to interrogate him. But during minutes of attempted RP I got nothing. He seemingly just went AFK or something. I freely admit, I came this close to FDing him out of sheer irritation, but instead I just looted some gold from him and an amulet, figuring it was the fine for ignoring his captor.

The short version of it all: Remember that your defeated opponent is a person, too. Remember that the person you just beat may be the winner the next time. Playing fair encourages others to play fair back. Being an arse will encourage others to ****** you in yours. And that will just escalate.

The short short version: DON'T BE AN ARSE.

As to mob mentality, all I can say is that it is very real and it is tempting to get lost in it. Try not to, it rarely leads any place good. Mind you, I mean in an OOC fashion -- the player should try to avoid mob mentality, hard as it may be. It's perfectly fine for the character to be caught up in it, as long as it is clearly IC and the player her/himself is ready to apply the brakes before things go too far.

~tOH.

[Big Orc Man]

The worst thing is when I see a PC subdue another PC and immediately take the opportunity to grab as much stuff as possible.

[Vlaid]

Well, my involvement in this event was something much different than I think a lot of people got. I wasn't robbed, or killed, and got a neat little hostage exchange/negotiation/escape RP out of it. At one point I could have very easily finished off one of my kidnappers on the ground with a quick punch, but I didn't....because frankly it would have been poor form and really wouldn't be telling anything of a story for anybody except notching one of the "bad guys" on my wall of victims.

I think that point is what people are missing. You want the PVP to be meaningful, to build up to it, and hopefully have that point where someone is finally defeated and killed be a big, meaningful moment. This can't always happen though, sometimes the situation just doesn't give you a way out of killing someone off...but think to yourself if you even care to look for a way to not kill someone very often in these situations.

Does it REALLY add anything if you murder a bunch of people who have no idea who you are, never saw you, never met you, and never will by the fact that they are now dead? That's more Arena PVP than RP PVP to me.

Some of this is why I often shy away from PVP so much. People(including myself) often forget they are telling a story when they hostile up, and instead go for the body count.

[Winston Martin]

It's a co-op story, not a realism sim. What do you not understand?

[Aethereal]

Reading through the original post, and the linked threads, I found this little statement I think some of the folks involved can apply.

Should you end a story, you should make sure it changes your character. It can be little or it can be massive based on the story in question.

For example, let's say you were a neutral bystander who joined the demon summoner side, simply because your character was on amicable terms with them and didn't know anyone from the other side.

After surviving the event, you might now be having pangs of guilt over what you have done, coming to the realisation of just how heinous the act was. This can easily be roleplayed, subtly or conspicuously in interactions along with future choices and can result in some pretty awesome RP.

If anyone remembers, when I was playing Amadeus, I made that character never forget what he had done in the slaying of his wife and that resulted in some excellent roleplay situations throughout his tenure, till the very end! Note as well, I could have easily just pretended it never happened, and could potentially pass that off as in-character as well, but that I did not, was without doubt the best possible choice.

[The Old Hack]

If anyone remembers, when I was playing Amadeus, I made that character never forget what he had done in the slaying of his wife and that resulted in some excellent roleplay situations throughout his tenure, till the very end! Note as well, I could have easily just pretended it never happened, and could potentially pass that off as in-character as well, but that I did not, was without doubt the best possible choice.

Doubled and redoubled. Amadeus was awesome and it really polarised people around him. I happened to play a character who knew Amadeus and Rena before the end of EfU and due to some big mistakes of her own in her past could see his side of it. She backed him and trusted him (she was more than a little bit naïve, WIS 8 can do that to you), and I had a great deal of fun from the whole situation.

Other characters of mine had similar life changing events. Camille de Ferbourg went from a more or less disinterested volunteer soldier to a diehard Trenada supporter after the events in Old Port where the Count betrayed them. Ulfrin went from a mildly greedy potion merchant to a fundraiser for the farmlands after falling under the spell of Micheal Tommas. Karrin Connell became a mortal enemy of the Order after Anotropos' execution at the Order's hands. And so forth.

An event can change a character for better or for worse, but the important part is that you are affected by people around you. Getting your life spared by someone might be as big as you yourself choosing to kill (or not.) This does not mean that you have to completely change your character personality or goals, of course -- but it does mean that it could lead to very cool RP to have what happens affect you.

Not to mention that people feel appreciated when you show that their RP means something to you. That's also worth noting.

~tOH.

[Pup]

I have to weigh a few considerations in a relatively short span of time: what will be the most fun for everyone involved; what will tell the best story; what is fair to other players; will I end a story by making my choice; what is in-character or realistic?

That's really tough for me, because I'm used to only thinking in the first and last terms. I think about moments, scenes, and not the bigger picture. It's why, if I'm lucky, people remember my characters, but the server never does.

This to me is key.  I will never be known as a great PvPer but I have had memorable characters that have had awesome stories and were absolutely ridiculous fun to play.  Most times "The Awesome" comes from fine role-play and originality.

Not entirely on-topic, but I had to jump on with LTS on this opinion.  I couldn't help it.

Also this.

It's a co-op story, not a realism sim. What do you not understand?

[Pool]

It's more of a OOC trust thing when it comes to etiquette and favors, if I may be honest.

I can't really say I can speak on this thoroughly because I am a very distrusting person in reality and find a tendency to get screwed over when I give people a bit of room. However, these thoughts usually occur to me when I think about being in someone else's shoes:

"Why should I do this guy any favors? He won't return it. He'll just round up a bunch of like-minded fellows because the island is crammed with them, give them potions, go invisible, gank me while I'm out and about, then give me a few insulting words before killing me in some terrible manner."

"I'm not going to get another chance at this, it can end right here. It doesn't have to continue. I can make off with some nice things from him and have a unmolested evening."

"This is stupid. I'm not going to bother."


People by nature will always attempt to even the odds. They won't take defeat easily if they can do something in the matter. Players already do not trust eachother to not metagame or act properly if given a bit of space. At least, this is what I've gathered from listening to people talk on IRC.

Until you can trust someone, the vicious cycle will never stop and they will always gear their characters as merciless extremists because they're afraid to put a large amount of detail behind a character when their possibility to live is about a week and a half.

Just a theory.

Also;

As for a red vs blue arena server......There is paladins I cant think of  a class that more encourages red vs blue then that class which is  basically devoted to smiting, and thwarting characters because of an  alignment. We have people killing eachother for things like faction  affiliation. I would also say there is literally a red vs blue blood vs  crips going on in real life. So in many ways warfare, and conflicts  happen.

Paladins do not 'smite people' just because they are evil. My current PC is evil and at least two Paladins have showed disgust to him. They've questioned why they see a black taint in him, but they've not attacked him outright for it when he was by himself out in the open. If the character was openly doing necromancy or some sort've vile art, sure, they would probably punch his face in. That doesn't mean they're extreme enemies.

As for 'Bloods and Crips' gang wars that you're using of a example, gang-bangers are not the portrayed badasses that they make themselves out to be on camera. Most 'murder' cases, they're charged for one or two murders, and that was by a spur of the moment rage where they just shot him. There is extreme cases, but when it boils down to it, they're just groups of young, poverty stricken morons who're pushing drugs or other illegal services to turn a buck. It is not a constant war between neighborhoods.

[The Old Hack]

It's more of a OOC trust thing when it comes to etiquette and favors, if I may be honest.

I can't really say I can speak on this thoroughly because I am a very distrusting person in reality and find a tendency to get screwed over when I give people a bit of room. However, these thoughts usually occur to me when I think about being in someone else's shoes:

"Why should I do this guy any favors? He won't return it. He'll just round up a bunch of like-minded fellows because the island is crammed with them, give them potions, go invisible, gank me while I'm out and about, then give me a few insulting words before killing me in some terrible manner."

"I'm not going to get another chance at this, it can end right here. It doesn't have to continue. I can make off with some nice things from him and have a unmolested evening."

"This is stupid. I'm not going to bother."

While what you describe are certainly understandable fears and concerns, it is still conceivable that they are exaggerated. I have spared enemies I have personally defeated and never had this happen to me. It may simply be that I am a statistical glitch or that I have been very lucky, but a naïve part of me quite simply hopes that it means that the Invisible Revenge Gank Squad is a less common phenomenon than some believe. :???:

Edit: I should add that it has happened to me that someone has invisibly attacked and FDed my characters, but in these cases it was normally due to political assassination or matters like that. Of course that is a crap feeling but in none of these cases was it a direct consequence of defeating and then sparing an enemy.

[Pool]

While what you describe are certainly understandable fears and concerns, it is still conceivable that they are exaggerated. I have spared enemies I have personally defeated and never had this happen to me. It may simply be that I am a statistical glitch or that I have been very lucky, but a naïve part of me quite simply hopes that it means that the Invisible Revenge Gank Squad is a less common phenomenon than some believe. :???:

Then that makes you an exception, I guess. And it's good that you remain optimistic on it. But on the grand scale of things, this is a common occurrence and until it ceases to be a easy "I win" button, it will continue to be used.

[The Old Hack]

Then that makes you an exception, I guess. And it's good that you remain optimistic on it. But on the grand scale of things, this is a common occurrence and until it ceases to be a easy "I win" button, it will continue to be used.

Oh yes. I am not saying you are wrong, only that I hope it isn't as bad as all that. *sigh*

And in truth, I have seen some incredibly sad stuff happen even if not exactly what you describe -- for example, a big PvP melee is going on and suddenly someone decides to switch to FD and run around killing all the already subdued enemies. And the understandably angered characters of the opposing side then also go FD and return the favour. (There are degrees. One of the cases of this featured some in-combat RP first where the person who started killing clearly and repeatedly warned the other side that he would do this if they did not withdraw from battle, and they ignored it. Whether this was good roleplay may be debatable, but at least he tried. But the other case was just someone deciding 'crap, our side is losing, let me make it as expensive as possible for the enemy,' and I felt and feel that that was actually pretty sad.)

Even so, the above events were exceptions, and I rather feel that they serve to support the point that too-hurried and/or badly roleplayed kills just cause things to escalate. (Come to think of it, I myself have yet to chase someone down with an invisible gank squad for having the temerity to defeat me in combat and then let me live. Maybe I am just a poor PvPer. o.O)

~tOH.

[Mort]

Well, I cringe when I hear players use terms like "Bull pots" IC, or fighters calling spells by their game name. To me saying burning someone to prevent a raise is using a Game term IC. Similarly, "Use BLUR". "Use See Invis" terms. I'm about to slap xp penalty, but always refrain myself to instead just go reward people who don't.

You burn them out of religious conviction. You dispose of the body out of preventing the law of finding it. You feed it to rats because you're a crazy rat shepard. Saying that the raison to burn them is TO PREVENT A RAISE is like a character saying "Ouch, you hit for 20 damage!" instead of "Ouch, that cut deep!" . Arena server do the former, roleplay servers try to convert all game terms into In-character terms with in-character justifications. Arena server favor optimized crushers. Roleplay server favor style. And it's painfully easy to a DM to see one that does it for style and one that does it to 'win'.

Nothing in my initial post is saying that evil acts should go unpunished at all, neither should all battles end with a subdual and a pat on the back. Not sure where you get that from -- It's very hard to justify not killing someone once they swore openly to Cyric or summoned Demons... If they manage to convince you and have the charisma, good on you and them, but otherwise that's a story reason.. Please oppose them with more than mere words/forum posts.

I'm also not a fan of the evil/good/nature/faction x clubhouse/team idea, and would incitate people to avoid thinking in that way. Sure you can think about a theme for your PC, but build some meat around that..

[Gotham]

But factionalism is openly promoted by the server dynamic. Conflict between the Dm factions and associations is promoted, consistently, by the DM team. When there's no conflicts going on, situations are pushed so there will be conflict. Now these conflicts have story reasons, but the end result is there's always that mentality that you should be fighting anyone not in your faction just because they're not in your faction.

I've also seen DM's try to push non-violent sparring tourneys into FD ones, so it's obvious we're -wanted- to PVP/kill each other.

[HalflingPower]

I can understand everyone having slang terms for items like 'blur' or 'bulls' since a lot of people say it and the rest of us pick it up. We are gamers after all and the internet jams a lot of slang into our heads. and HELL, ITS WHAT THE POTION NAME SAYS SOMETIMES. It's like the paladin with no lore finding a demon skin armor in the charity chest and when he reads the items name he goes THIS IS DEMONIC, MUST TRASH PIT.

[RuinedDesires]

I think your completely missing the point the DM's are trying to make Gotham.

We are -encouraged- to take risks, we are encouraged to go against the flow, to stir the pot. Why? Because it makes an interesting dynamic, because it allows the playerbase to rally to causes.

If we did not do these things, EFU would be stagnant constantly, we would not have epic tales of villains or Heroes who rose to the highest heights, and then came crashing down.

When a DM pushes a constant so that players fight to the death, its to make it more interesting. Is it fun to hit one another and at the end get a pat on the back? Yes, but I can certainly say its far more interesting in a spectator and a competitor perspective when you know two people are fighting, and one of them may be killed.

When a DM pushes this kind of things, it is never without some kind of reward, whether its XP, loot or even taking a larger interest in your pc and his/her actions.

Another point is, that while we are encouraged to form conflict with other factions and associations. That does not mean we cannot cause conflict within them. It is far more enjoyable for DM's and players to see a faction taking over a town, but also knowing or even suspecting that whats holding that group together is a very very thing sheet of ice.

Groups have done amazing things, and then came crumbling down from betrayals -within- them. Being kept on your toes is a good thing, EFU is not about feeling safe, its about struggling to survive and wondering where that next knife will come from. Your enemy? Or you best friend you've been stealing all the credit from.

As for the message as a whole.

This is a reoccuring thing, something the team constantly tells players. In the Past I have had moments when a DM has sent me a tell saying, it would be harsh to kill a player.

But more often than not, you will find them and your victim far more impressed when you decide. No, I wont kill him, today I will remove a limb. I'll make him play a game of chance to see if he lives. I'll take some gold and send him on his way.

Building an epic rivalry is far more impressive to come across than seeing a character who you know will just outright kill you. Why will other players want to interact with you? Why will they think about sparing you given that kind of reputation?

You will find that some people wont get the hint, wont get the message, be the bigger player and help the Community as a whole instead of yourself.