Pool's questions

[Pool]

this is old good god why are you necromancing this people





Before I begin, I just want to say I am not attempting to be venomous in anything I say. I don't believe I came off sounding as a douchebag, but I'll put it here anyways because this always seems like a topic where things'll go wrong.

I also understand I'll get looked at like an alien because alot of people are accustomed to how things work here. Bare with me here. It was difficult just getting used to P&P alone with my "This is a sword, this is also a sword, why should this one stab and kill better than the other one?" mentality.


So I've been here for a little bit, but alot of things rarely make sense. These are including but are not limited to:

1: Anonymous forum accounts and Gamespy accounts. Why? Are you afraid that someone'll expect bad things from the character because of your track record with previous characters while playing it and maybe metagame it or something? Is there some sort've kick out of partaking in some charade?

I really don't mind if your character is a worshipper of Cyric here to stab my character to death. He isn't any the wiser and it won't change my outlook on the situation one way or the other once something happens to him or the character you're playing carries through with their threat by bringing some demon thing to the surface. I just do not find the appeal of guessing who you are OOCly. :/

2: 'Story-telling'. This one might just be out of preference. Alot of people treat the happenings IG as if it were someone talking about a book or movie. Maybe it just may be me because I have the same stance on books and movies, but I like transparency. I'd like to know the whole story of Ymph from start to finish, from the stuff that'd be on the surface to the smallest of dark secrets. My character wouldn't know any better, nor would this turn him off from attempting to pursue things. He also wouldn't make some magical leap and somehow assume something works right off the bat from vague descriptions.

 It just leaves me from guessing what's just a specific type of writing and what has more depth than what meets the eye.

3: The conflict. The server thrives off the stuff. Not sure why. Living things'll always fight because it's in their nature, so I have no qualms with it existing, but it seems there's this idea that if the PVP slows down or stops, that it'll go away and never come back or something. So as a result there's just a never-ending line of it being pumped in and at times it gets over-burdening. I joined a faction because I assumed nothing would continue to happen as a neutral adventurer in a suit of steel and a sword. While that kind've changed (not too much), I don't dig my character's forced hand to lop someone's face off and get lit on fire because of a 'he-said-she-said' that sparked a fight.

What's the reasoning behind this? Is it so it gives DMs room to breathe so they can pursue entertaining other groups and setting things up? Is there only really any fun in PVP? Is it just a 'thing' that happens because everyone pursues better equipment so they can continue on to what concept they'd like and finds the only way to get it so quickly is by doing just that? Are characters ICly that over-zealous and abandon their natural thought process to do what's expected of them? I understand these are old times and they're nowhere as enlightened as our actual selves, but it's kind've a given for being a living being to receive these talents naturally.

4: Grim-dark. I'm okay with Grim-dark. It gives me motivation to get out there and do something or die trying. Yeah, chase down that Lich with a sword and throw it at her like a boomerang, then take your shoes off and begin to throw it at her if the sword misses. But as a law, you cannot have something without an opposite. For there to be thick there has to be thin. For there to be heavy there has to be light. For there to be black, there has to be white.

EFU does not seem to have any decent ending for anything decent on the moral compass. Morally okay characters seem to die quickly or are not rewarded for not stabbing everyone in the back and flinging themselves at the stars. While I have no emotional attachment to my characters in any way, shape or form and have no problems when I lose them, I find the whole situation in general very depressing and weighing down on my shoulders.

The grim-dark does not have any light at the end of the tunnel. Is it just buried underneath everyone else's IC evil deeds? Is it because there is nothing worth it at the end of the trip? Is EFU's setting majorly a cool kid's club hang-out spot for morally questionable characters and has it always been like this?

5: Punishment for death. I guess I see your point in trying to put on weight for people surviving and taking life seriously. But it kind've gets annoying when characters are level 7, who're on the verge of hitting level 8, only to drop all the way to level 5 and be weak as a twig for the next few days until they crush quests to get their level back up while RPly they were in good fighting condition until then. Can't there be a simpler solution? Just lose all XP paid towards the current level or pay off an XP debt? Supposedly the script caps at level 10, so what would there be to lose?

[Valo56]

As for 1: There are various reasons. First of all there's the secret lives of some PC's. A Cyricist in the Order, for instance, would likely have a secret forum account which he uses alongside his real one. Some people might just want a blank slate, either as far as character vaults or as far as what other PC's/DM's expect. It's not a question of making people guess, it's a question of simple anonymity.

2: We are players, not DM's. DM's know the plotline, players follow it. You don't need to know what will happen next, you're meant to guess at it. There are many mysteries on Ymph, many problems, and knowing the stores and answers to them all, even on an OOC level with you swearing never to metagame, just invites all sorts of problems and ruins the fun regardless.

3: Conflict is good, and you can usually just walk away from it. The recent conflict with the Conclave was in essence a constant cycle of revenge. Anyone could have walked away at any time, as far as the Watchers go. Instead we did the bold thing, the right thing, and opposed some evil PC's. I have no regrets. Do what makes sense for your character, and if that means fighting, fight. If that means running or negotiation, do so.

4: There is lots of evil and darkness and grim in EfU. There is not a lot of good and hope and light. If you want it, make it. There are no "pre-set endings" unless no one does anything. The outcome of any event, conflict, or plot will certainly be guided by DM's but the PC's will ultimately have the greatest effect on things. EfU:A ended due to player actions (releasing H'bala, entirely PC effort). During the famine, it was very nearly ended by PC efforts, as some 80,000 gold was raised to see it ended, but it was then gambled away (50% chance of either poverty or great wealth for the Duchy).

5: If you're 7 on the verge of 8 and you die you will go back down to 6. But I see your point. It is stressful, but necessary. Level 5/6 is the average on EfU, level 7 is rather strong, 8 is a beast, 9+ is pretty much the epic levels. Without the XP drain that is death, we'd have people hitting level 20. We don't want that. It is much better this way.

If you're level 6, you're doing well. Don't stress. If you're level 5, do a few quests to get to 6. Beyond that, don't worry, because level 6 is a perfectly reasonable level where you can, especially if you have the help of other PC's, get stuff done with a moderate chance of success. Respawning is a courtesy.

For victory to be worth ANYTHING, there has to be risk of losing EVERYTHING.

[Gippy]

1.) This was done originally for DMs to play without being recognized. It has become culture. There is nothing bad about it at all. A bit of mystery makes for a better server.

2.) I think we as a DM team could do better to get the story out to the masses. We lavishly reward historian characters that write excellent history's of IG events. However, like a book unfolding page by page it's in nobody's interest to skip ahead and read the ending.

3)

Conflict is good, and you can usually just walk away from it. The recent conflict with the Conclave was in essence a constant cycle of revenge. Anyone could have walked away at any time, as far as the Watchers go. Instead we did the bold thing, the right thing, and opposed some evil PC's. I have no regrets. Do what makes sense for your character, and if that means fighting, fight. If that means running or negotiation, do so. - Valo

4.) Is there a decent ending for PCs on the evil compass? Everyone dies in the end. Many PCs in EFU are actually good or neutral / good leaning, even the evil ones tend to be reasonable. Even the evil PCs tend to try to be building something rather than tearing it all down. Conflict is only sometimes based upon alignment -- more likely it is based upon worldview.

EFU is about PCs that struggle with morality in the face of difficult situations -- that sometimes have to compromise their moral integrity to survive and complete their goals. The ones that keep their integrity and still succeed are the badasses that everyone remembers and worship.

5)

If you're 7 on the verge of 8 and you die you will go back down to 6. But I see your point. It is stressful, but necessary. Level 5/6 is the average on EfU, level 7 is rather strong, 8 is a beast, 9+ is pretty much the epic levels. Without the XP drain that is death, we'd have people hitting level 20. We don't want that. It is much better this way.

If you're level 6, you're doing well. Don't stress. If you're level 5, do a few quests to get to 6. Beyond that, don't worry, because level 6 is a perfectly reasonable level where you can, especially if you have the help of other PC's, get stuff done with a moderate chance of success. Respawning is a courtesy.
- Valo

For victory to be worth ANYTHING, there has to be risk of losing EVERYTHING.
- Valo

[Voluminous Cloak]

Someone give Valo XP ig!

[Coldburn]

I love this Valo, who is this guy? Who am I? What?

[tropic]

Having struggled with some of the same questions (particularly #3 and 4), my advice is:

You should try to find your own "balance." Players don't have to conform to the "perfect" EfU play style in the same way that not every character must be stoic and grim. Find a play style that you enjoy and build on it.

[lovethesuit]

Having struggled with some of the same questions (particularly #3 and 4), my advice is:

You should try to find your own "balance." Players don't have to conform to the "perfect" EfU play style in the same way that not every character must be stoic and grim. Find a play style that you enjoy and build on it.

I would agree with this. I've been around, off and on, for quite a while. I only recently realized that I can't have two successful characters in a row. Now I take breaks. Before that, I would start character after character, sometimes even only playing them once before I quit because it became boring to me. What I'm interested in doing changes over time, and since I've gotten so much busier in real life, I don't want what I do to feel like work. So, there are times when I'll end a character early (relatively speaking) rather than drag it out.

I generally do the thing you describe in question 1 because I'm very embarrassed by how I used to act on this server when I was less mature. I owe significant apologies to certain people for dickish behaviour in the past. It's not that I lie about who I am, but I change the player name and don't exactly advertise it.

For question 2, about story-telling, I'll admit that as in love as I am with the setting and all the secrets, they sometimes feel a bit impenetrable. But then, I've rarely if ever travelled in those circles and factions that really dig to the heart of server lore. I get the feeling that if I were a member of a major faction, I'd learn a lot more.

That said, to me the most important story is the one I tell with my character. It's not a book or a movie: It's a koan, with a nebulous beginning and sudden end and no real meaning that can be conveyed directly. Many PCs have depths of character that will never be told, simply because it's not interesting to anyone but the player. That is okay, too. "If you have to explain the joke, there is no joke!"

For question 5: EfU:M is not about levels or feats or class combinations. It's about something significantly less interesting to me: potions. Well, potions and wands and other items like that, to be more specific. It's the reason I never got really good at PvP here: I prefer to fight au naturel.

NWN has limitations to how interesting the combat can be which are supplemented by potions et al. The order in which you consume spells, when, how much, and finally what choices of spells you imbibe all add a layer of complexity to the process. On the outside of it, it's pretty boring to watch: chug, chug, chug, chug, slash, dead. But when that happens, try to think about what the players are experiencing from their perspective: the rapid eye and hand movement, the split-second decision-making, the hesitation and build-up and climax and finality of it. Some EfU players really get it more than others.

Moreover, it encourages questing and/or economy to keep supplies up. Why is that important? Questing requires players to explore and "leave the nest", while economy encourages players to converse and centralize. Send them out, bring them back. It's a tidal flow of activity that means there will always be something happening, even when there's nothing happening.

What does this have to do with XP? Two things: First, the difficulty of a quest is proportional to its reward, generally speaking. Quests are not intended to be mundane tasks, they are intended to be Quests: epic, world-shattering, dramatic, even if it's clearing out a granary. During the quest, you are the most important person on the server. During a tough, high-level quest, it's even more so. But the hero of the story does not start off on the throne, and neither does an EfU character. The setbacks in place prohibit an over-abundance of heroes at any one time.

Second, with great power comes great responsibility. At higher levels, characters can affect others significantly easier. Imagine a level 10 telling a level 5 what to do. To get to level 10 purely through questing happens rarely; bonus experience from good and interesting roleplaying is often the key to that achievement. Therefore, those characters with higher levels will be those with the responsibility, interesting traits, and discipline necessary to make that power over other players a sound investment.

[Nihm]

I agree with Pool in that there's too much emphasis on conflict, and this ties in to the other things he mentioned.
 
Secret accounts - so the deeds or misdeeds in pvp will not accrue ooc dislike or like to characters.
 
Lack of character reactions to in game events - part of that comes from permanent death (mostly because of pvp) being so common.
 
Grim-dark gets darker when not only do people not cooperate to survive, they constantly kill each other over small things.

[Nihm]

There are various contributing reasons as to why this is a heavy pvp server.
 
1.  Killing characters is the easier route to both making a difference and getting wealthy.  Your faction character can kill those of an opposing faction to get an easier boost than working through dm events.
 
2.  A lack of alternatives.  People will not be held to oaths they make nor is there a good slavery, thrall or geas system.  Humiliations or dishonoring or torture or what have you is only effective if the other person's player agrees that it will be and then maintains interest in that.  Without a good deal of ooc arrangements you can't be sure they won't just carry on if spared without showing any effect from the scenario that was supposed to be the alternative to the full damage.  As such killing is the clean and convenient method.
 
3.  Example : when it happens once or twice to someone that they get full damaged without prior conflicts they'll start doing the same assuming this is the way to play.  So it builds its own momentum.
 
4.  An ooc expectation that all characters should have a short lifespan.
 
5.  Some people who enjoy pvp more than anything else and play for that reason.
 
6.  Dm possessed npcs which ask for deaths as opposed to some other outcome.

[Gotham]

Some of the best advice I ever got was "Screw the DM's and what they want. Make them like what your doing by being awesome." I'm paraphrasing, but that was the general idea.

EFU can be feels bad, man. We've seen these threads before. Shit i've made these threads. I've gotten super upset before. In large doses, EFU is just depressing.

As for anon forum/gs accounts, I just like coming with with witty names. There's also sort of a bias against alts here, and this free bird can't have himself tied down to just one woman character. I'm not trying to hide. Though it does make me feel like a special girl at the ball when people think i'm new.

The death penalty: it does hurt, yeah. I try to be mellow, and look at dying as a way to CRUSH LOW LVL QUESTS FOR EASY SUPPLIES YEAAAHHHHH but it's just one of those mechanisms you have to get used to over time.

As for the Grimdark, I believe there is something of a sadomasochistic/schadenfreude fixation on it, but at the same time I've also seen that evil gets theirs, jack. I lived through the end of EFU:A, and for one brief shining moment people cooperated and people told the evil pc's to stfu. Also, people did what I said for some reason. That was cool. Anyway, it was really kind of beautiful to watch everything crumble to shit around the Stygians, and all the stupid Docks V Dominion fighting stop to confront the issue of ENDLESS HOARDES OF SKELETONS. Even the Conclave was heroic, after a fashion. Since then they've gotten pretty mustache twirly but i'm sure there's an IC reason.

[Pool]

this is old good god why are you necromancing this

[Gotham]

Server needs more necromancers tbh I JUST SAW 'NEW POST' OK?