Paladins aren't always nice

[Apocalypse Nigh]

I am going to go into bit of a rant here, hopefully I'll manage to keep my arguments cohesive and understandable.
 
Paladins aren't always nice. Sure, you can play a merciful, kindly, gentle, and profoundly spiritual individual, but I would make the argument your PC would be better off as a cleric then, or a non-paladin class. Sure, you can play a tolerant, accepting, and open-minded paladin, but again, I'd make the argument you're better off as a non-paladin.
 
Why?
 
Paladins are lawful good. Their inherent enlignment and -faith- tends to make them believe they are -right- in all situations, those that disagree with them are wrong, and would be serving the interests of some evil malefactor. They believe they are the epitomy of what their deity represents they are not a divine champion, but their grueling indoctrination of their faith forces them to view the world through a very narrow lense. The prejudice and stereotypes of their peers, and what their culture believes will also influence their moral code. A mulhorandi paladin would own slaves, conversely, a Cormyrian one would abhor the practice.
 
This is not universal, but this is how I interpret the class.
 
The Dichotomy here implies two things. Lawful in that he accepts (to some extent) the status quo, adheres to oaths, and values what his society believes.
 
He is good in that he fights evil, willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of others, and will never commit an evil deed.
 
A paladin is there to fight CHAOS AND EVIL. It does not mean he cannot conflict with another paladin or good or neutral power. Simply because you do not DETECT EVIL in them, does not mean they cannot be serving an evil power or shrouding themselves from your divine sight. THE PALADIN MUST BE CAUTIOUS OF INADVERDENTLY SERVING EVIL OR CHAOS! He can and will be faulted for the mistakes he made. A CHAOTIC INDIVIDUAL IN THE MIND OF A PALADIN IS ALMOST AS BAD AS AN EVIL ONE. They can be CHAOTIC GOOD, but they SHOULD be brought before the ironhand of law if they break the dictates of society or act in a chaotic manner.
 
"I didn't sense evil!" is not good enough! The Detect Evil is there to HELP the paladin, but when it gets down to it, he must use his own wit and ability to serve the interests of his code and god, the detect evil skill Is not to be used as a crutch. If the Paladin thinks something is wrong, he must -act- to remove the influence!
 
Some food for thought I suppose.

[Softie]

I disagree.

Some people say that paladins can't be bastards and they are wrong, but saying that being not nice is their default state is not accurate.

Paladins are nothing less than the mortal embodiment of hope and goodness, the final spark of light to fight on when all else is extinguished.  The paladin code is filled with examples of "nice" things a paladin should do, like protecting the weak and seeking justice.

A paladin does not have to be nice but I do not think it is accurate to say that their default state is not being nice.  FR canon is loaded with tons of examples of "nice" paladins, though there are not-nice paladins too, they seem a minority.

Of course on EFU we like conflict so it is good for paladins to stir the pot but they do not HAVE to be bastards.

[Apocalypse Nigh]

A good few points!
 
All right, I'll change the topic to, "Paladins aren't always nice."
 
But I just wanted to point, the paladin class is very open to interpretation even within the narrow confines of their oaths!

[Lenthis]

Thomas,
The need for Iron clad justice, is only in certain paladins. And your making it sound as if it is required in all. Chaos is no where near as high of an priority as evil, for example a Lathanderite priest can be Chaotic good while their paladin is lawful good and I can be sure that the paladin will not smite his own priest for his free thoughts. I don't know what brought you on to make this thread, but your expectations on paladins is a tad off, if you think they will now crusade against chaos, which they can not tell nor detect in a place like EFU where there is plenty of more important evils to combat.

If you are attempting to make more conflict on an individual paladin, then you can seek out Chaos, but the point of a paladin is not to start battles he is there to end them. The battle against evil and darkness is constant, paladins are the knights of their gods whom move in to push agendas in other areas.

A paladin in EFU, is swamped with things to do from limiting the evil influence in the village to that on the general scale, to say a paladin is bound only to the lawful side of everything is to say, that your turning paladins into now, the good version of Banites which they are not.

There are as many paladins as there are religions and each will be diffrent in his deployment, from being critical of law as well as good, or more so in one direction a Paladin of Helm would make sense in the direction your pushing, one of Lathander not so much.

Paladins can be only a shade of white in EFU, which is evil against good, Chaos against order, Light against dark.  A paladin can be mean, and "Not nice" but that is a faster way into the coldness that brings a paladin to neutrality rather then good. To be a Paragon of Good, You must be Good. There is no, "Badass cold hero type" with paladins, because that will eventually lead to your failing as a paladin, you wish that, play a fighter priest of your religion.
It is much more important to stay good then to fall into evil, then it is to be lawful and stay away from chaos.

[Relinquish]

If you are playing a paladin/cleric/druid, there are RP elements involved such as oaths, and dogmas, to follow. These classes are reliant on deities for the source of their powers, and if they betray the deity, or fail to earn their powers, they can lose them.

This is generally well known, but for the sake of clarity, here is a brief explanation of some of the elements involved!

Paladins

Paladins are possibly the most demanding class. They not only have to answer to their deity's dogmatic needs, but also uphold their oaths of paladin conduct.

Fealty

Paladins must uphold the teachings of their deity. This does not mean street preaching, but they must live their lives and exhibit themselves in their deities image. They must obey the tenets of their god. They must strive to act in a manner that is in the interest of their god.

For example, a paladin of Lathander who is miserable and hopeless will no longer be a paladin of Lathander. A paladin of Torm who is reluctant to combat evil will no longer be a paladin of Torm, etc.

Courtesy

A paladin must conduct themselves with a modicum of proper behavior. They are expected to be respectful of others. A paladin who routinely spreads slander and speaks ill of others behind their backs could lose powers. A paladin who engages in street brawls could lose their powers.

This does not mean a paladin has to be a nicey nicey patsy, they just must behave with a semblance of dignity. They are the 'elite' representatives of their faith and are expected to act as such.

For example, a paladin of Torm who spreads words around town about how much he hates a local Banite, and spreads tales about his ill behavior without proof, could lose powers.

On the other hand, if the same paladin openly speaks plainly of foul deeds comitted by the Banite, and urges others to be cautious against, or take actions against, the Banite, is fine.

Basically, confrontation is ok, but shit-talking is not. Likewise, a paladin who gets in arguments and fisticuffs with local thugs could lose power, but one who engages in honorable duals or fights to defend themselves is fine.

Honesty

A paladin is expected to be honest in words and deeds. Paladins can not lie under any circumstances. They may choose to not speak at all, as opposed to lying. They also can not practice deceit. Disguising themselves in order to sow discontent among their rivals is dishonest.

A paladin may 'disguise' themselves so as not to be seen immediately for who they are, but they may not use this to their advantage, by pretending to be someone else when confronted, or to perform actions in the guise of another, or an unknown.

For example, a paladin, if captured, and asked by the enemy where to find the undefended leader of the paladin's group, can not lie, but may refuse to answer.

A paladin may wear a large cloak over his head to pass through an unfriendly town unmolested, but they may not wear the cloak in order to hand out notices signed by a false name, or to spread word about their rivals crimes while pretending to be a local thug.

Valor

A paladin is expected to be courageous, both in battle and out. While retreat is, at times, the only sensible option, if a paladin routinely flees prematurely, or flees in a manner that endangers his companions, he could lose his paladinhood. Likewise, a paladin is expected to be brave in representing his faith, and standing up against his enemies out of battle as well.

For example, a paladin who flees a powerful orc once he takes a solid blow, and thus allows the orc to slay his companions, could lose powers. If a paladin finds himself surrounded by powerful orcs, with no hope for victory, he may retreat honorably, but still must take care to see that his retreat does not cause loss of innocent lives.

Likewise, a paladin who becomes meek and timid when confronted by representatives of rival faiths, could lose powers.

Honor

Honor is everyting to a paladin, at times almost to a fault. He is expected to be respectful to all, even his enemies. No pissing on their corpses for the paladin. He is also expected to be willing to go all the way to see that his honor is maintained. He will always keep his word once given, or die trying.

For example, if an enemy he has defeated behaved courageously in his own way, a paladin might even adhere to his dying wish, or see a proper burial performed. A paladin will never desecrate the dead.

If a paladin is challenged to a duel by someone of similar ability, he must accept. If, say, a drunken commoner well beneath him challenges him, he may turn away, as this shows greater honor than beating the man.

Some more specific examples things a paladin will and will not do...

- Will not work alongside evil people, in any way. A paladin may meet with them, or have conversations, but nothing that remotely benefits the evil one is allowed, including plotting, questing, giving them gold, etc.

- Will not break his word without giving full effort to uphold it.

- Will not lie or deceive.

- Will not attack, or harm in any way, an innocent.

- Will not torture in any way, for any reason.

- Will not break the law, unless the law is unjust or in conflict with their deity's dogma. Even then, they will strive to see it overturned without breaking it.

- Will never betray a friend, ever.

- Will never take dirty money or items, or otherwise enrich themselves off the misdeeds of others.

- Will not desecrate the dead in any manner.

- Will not attack or kill an unarmed, and/or unaware foe.

- Will not use poisons to defeat an enemy.

- Will obviously not steal, murder, etc.

go go copy paste
http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32474

[Gotham]

...What, is that character actually a paladin? I thought she was a cleric and that was just a spell she got.

Yeah could've swore she was LE. Sorry.

[Jayde Moon]

Just be mindful that you don't take IC criticisms and interpret them as OOC criticisms.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

Thomas is just a bastard.

 But, yeah.  Paladins should be completely intolerant of evil and chaos; even if they observe non-evil and chaotic individuals tolerating such actions and philosophies.  Joe Paladin might have a Neutral Good friend that he's chummy with, but if Neutral Good friend starts hanging out with the wrong crowd or committing borderline acts - there's nothing wrong with Joe being a staunch bastard to his friend when he refuses to see reason (or in some cases out right punishing him).

Paladins don't have to have mercy.  Though it depends on how you want to play it.  With all the blatant evil on EFU, I usually lean towards favoring the antagonistic paladin who shows little leeway when another antagonistic evil or chaotic character is at their mercy.  Though such a paladin usually has a very brief life span and a less-than- liked reputation amongst other players all across the alignment board.

And another thing that gets me, is that being Lawful Good doesn't necessarily meaning that a paladin must abide to the Letter of the Law in a legal Dominion if they are unsuitable to their code.  For example, the recent Summerset Act which led to the starvation of the impoverished and had no legal or noble authority to back it up (A mayor, deputy mayor, someone of noble birth) - if a paladin were to disregard this law; I would see no reason why it would shift their alignment due to its insidious and illegitimate nature.  

Law when talking of character alignment, doesn't mean "law-abiding" in the legal sense, it means abiding to a set of codes or having a structural life-style.  For paladins to be more effective in game, I think the DM-team as a whole need to come together to a consensus on what Law and Chaos are universally so that alignment shifts are made with accuracy.

[TeufelHunden]

Yeah I agree Thomas paladins are dicks. Why try to hide it with a smile?

[Softie]

I think your paladin is neat and never thought for a second that paladins can't be jerks!

Your PC is fun to interact with.

[Valo56]

Paladins do not get smite chaos. They should certainly work against chaos in large scale, but going around beating the crap out of Tymorans because they're chaotic individuals is just not something a paladin will do. Period.

Paladins are PRIMARILY there to hunt evil. Not chaos.

Ultimately it depends on the paladin, and simply put, I agree with Gotham that your paladin is acting lawful evil, or a harsh lawful neutral at best. I would personally base some of my Banites off of your current character's mindset, from what I've seen. What you said you were trying to do in the Order to me in a tell only solidifies that belief. There's a difference between simply being a bastard and being a murderous bastard, but that's between you and the DM's, and if the DM's are fine with your recent actions and plans, and you're having fun, and you're spreading conflict in the server, then whatever.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

If people think Thomas's paladin is a jerk, they didn't know BOM's paladin. Haha.

[HungeringShadows]

I don't think people should use these forums to criticize each others characters. Nor do I think they should be used to justify your current characters actions ooc'ly. If there are problems with the way a specific character is being played it's best to just leave the matter to a DM. The paladin debate is one for DM's not for players in my opinion.

[EfUA_undercover]

Ignore the haters, Thomas! Just do what you wanna do and the fact that you haven't earned spellfailure by now proves you are right anyway.

Now let's cheer and party up!

[FanaticusIncendi]

I don't think people should use these forums to criticize each others characters. Nor do I think they should be used to justify your current characters actions ooc'ly. If there are problems with the way a specific character is being played it's best to just leave the matter to a DM. The paladin debate is one for DM's not for players in my opinion.

^This^

Settle this crap IG, IC, where it belongs.