Subraces

[Snoteye]

... the fact of being universally hated by pretty much everyone...

You do not see what we see.

It's making characters that should be monstrous and fearsome into pathetic low lvls that any normal PC could swat like a fly...

So why don't they?

There is actually a set way to determine a creatures effective character level ( [COLOR="lightblue"]ECL[/COLOR] ).

Just so we're all talking about the same thing, some simpleton once decided that "ECL" would be a fitting term for the factor by which a super-powered race would have its total class levels adjusted in NWN. When all the previous posters say ECL, they don't know they really mean LA (and, for the record, we are using the standard procedure for determining Effective Character Level).

[Garem]

The first two sentences of Snoteye's post explains my thoughts on it.

Most people don't kill monsters when they should. NPCs only very rarely do anything against monster PCs. The Kingsman bounty on the Wereboar was definitely the exception, not the rule!

I would support a reduction, not a removal, only with the promise of notably increased enticement of PCs to react as they should (read: Kill on sight!) when spotting a monster.

[Cruzel]

I think the answer why people do not kill them at low level is pretty obvious.


1; They have no awesome loot yet.

2; Why kill when you can quest with them and be BFFS and gain loot and XP together? ^^

3; They have no loot yet.

4; PVPing a low level with no loot =  Unproductive use of time (read; Not questing)

Edit/ADD;

I dont think the NPCS do anything, because even though it's more appropriate to the setting, it's kind of lame for the DM's to start PVPing you with NPC's because all the PC's think it's a waste of time. It's kind of counterproductive for a NPC to (try) to kill you, because then you need absolutely need a DM to plot any sort of revenge or anything of the like towards that NPC, and unless the PC will gather a shitload of PC's in whatever schemata he may have formed, a singular conflict between the player and NPC is kind of boring and pointless.  They may say. "Oi, monster, I ain't giving you tree-fitty, get off my lawn!" and give you a good broom beating- but that's about it.

The only REAL way to get PC's turning their HATEVIBE on, is a XP REDUCTION for being BFFS with a monster unless it's blatantly obvious they have a good reason for not killing them. Or showering monster PC's with DM loot on creation, making them an instant target for PVP.

[Egon the Monkey]

I'll add to cruzel's list:
5: Because before, when everyone turned up out the Portal, if you wanted to welcome a new monstrous arrival with a hail of pointy arrows, you'd need a DM. That's sorted now with the "shipwreck start point, so a monster can arrive in an area that's not going to result in "why don't we just insta-gank this thing like that Beholder that turned up... oh. No DM"

6: Because of (5), by the time you think "maybe I should go splat that 7 foot tall fish/lizard/calamari beast", it's already managed to acquire buddies. I was actually surprised that Surksus rapidly got despised and hunted (even without Mort's encouragement, people were after him. Hats off to everyone involved, Surksus made a big impact really fast.), when he was the least obvious monster PC, but Ixiotl and Senhagad got tolerated. Maybe it's just that the last two immediately tried to be diplomatic, or lack of DM presence when they were new.
I actually tend to assume any monster does have allies, they get them so fast.

As an aside, I know of at least two app characters (for BG not subrace) who have started with DM flavour loot. One of those is from a faction that's likely Kill On Sight for a bunch of PCs. I'm watching his fate with interest :).

I really would like to see all obvious monster PCs (so, not helmed Drow/Duergar etc) only be able to arrive with a DM supervising, start at level 4 or 5, have some good, steal-worthy loot and a few "escape" potions or something and be prepared to have anyone nearby open fire on them the second they port in.

If a monster PC had to hit the ground running and feel hunted from the get-go, rather than having a good time to talk and attempt to suck up to Evil factions, the arrival of one would be something impressive, with them facing an angry mob and trying to find ways to make peaceful contact once they get clear of it.

[Wern8]

I think Cruzel is quite wrong, except maybe for number 2. I believe players do not kill monsters because quite the number of players are afraid of getting involved in PvP or they feel that it would be mean to fight monster PCs simply because of what they are and at the same time, the current IG situation and setting seems to be quite friendly/open to PC monsters.

I myself have so far played characters who were strongly against PC monsters, and tried acting against them through both words and battle, but it is sort of difficult when nobody else cares and after that I decided to play a more subtle sort of character. Though, this is not a complaint or rant.

Anyway, there are of course legitimate reasons for PC characters not to fight them for what they are or even to be against them, but I suspect that more of this reluctance to quarrel/fight with monster PCs is due to OOC reasons, like for example OOC friendship with the player of the monster, fear of PvP or fear of angering/upsetting the monster PC's player or people simply do not care, etc..

I feel that its going overboard, even if you do not wish to get involved in PvP or kill the monster PC, at least do what is IC (I would think that most characters/people would have quite a few reasons to hate monsters as well) and speak out against them. And alignment should not be a factor in this, evil aligned, good aligned and neutral aligned PCs alike could despise monsters and seek to fight/quarrel against them on sight. Even good aligned PCs can act against non-evil PC monsters, we ought to act only on what our character knows, not on what they don't.

Note: Obviously I do not believe that everyone has to/should play a monster hating character, just do what your character will do, but when just about the majority of PCs do not seem to object to or quarrel with monster PCs, something must be wrong somewhere. I think it really takes away from the experience of playing a monster PC as well.

[Letsplayforfun]

I kind of agree with Wern8 concerning player attitude towards monsters.

I'd like to add: if town npcs we set to hostile all monster races, that would certainly help putting them were they belong...

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Here's the thing.

Even if your character is evil, he likely grew up being taught monsters were evil, and ought to be killed.

Evil does not mean totally tolerant of monstrous races, far from it, you likely torment monsters before killing them, little feats of sadistic torture. I was quite frustrated when people do not kill goblins, especially dwarves. This might be because people are simply afraid of PvP, in all honestly, I -suck- at pvp, so I understand where you all are coming from.

If you are afraid of PvP, simply make it clear you won't deal with then, support characters who are willing to kill them. Don't quest with monsters and pretend to hate them while OOCly snickering at the loot you are earning.


Hating Monsters doesn't mean PvP smash! Simply make their lives difficult, expose them to players who -would- take action against them. Yes, Senhagad is a monster. But at the same time he has managed to develop a reputation of civilized monstrosity, to the extent that he is even admired by some characters I encountered.

Ixiototl is the same way, he is a savage, bloodthirsty Sahuagin, but has developed allies with The Armada (Who indeed accepts them!) So he has an amazing resource to draw on in the event he is attacked.

people fear attacking monsters for fear of reprisals, I was deathly scared after Killing Surksus of his allies attacking me (and still am!) Indeed, the monsters aren't what are deadly, the allies are!




Thomas, OUT

[Gippy]

I did not generally kill monsters with my PCs because they were pathetic to kill with a fully equipped PC. With ECL most monsters are pretty terrible, except for a few exceptions, and it's really no fun to just walk over things in PvP. I just end up feeling very guilty in the end. I guess killing stuff that you've had no real interaction with, just because of what they are, seems for the most part contrived to me and not very fun for the other player. Because of this I just tend to avoid monsters if my PC would likely want to crush their skulls. If they were more powerful I would have no regrets with hunting them down and killing them, I think it would be a lot of fun, probably.

ECL is for the most part designed to balance a single questing party for traditional DnD. It does not make a whole lot of sense to balance a hated killing machine, when it is the imbalance of the creature that makes them interesting to fight, and hate. These monsters aren't supposed to be balanced, because if they're balanced, then they're not really that scary. Besides, I would go so far as to say that for the most part having two or three more levels, is far greater then any bonus for any subrace besides possibly Wereboar, or Lizardfolk.

[Conan The Conqueror]

I think the biggest issue with monster PC's I've seen is DM availability for pvp. So when I happen to stumble upon 3 orc PCs running around the base of the Ziggurat on their way to a quest I go to ping the DM channel so that I can have someone watching. By then the orcs are already buffing up and getting ready to pwn me. My element of surprise is completely gone and now I'm making a hasty escape.

This isn't always a case, but definitely a matter of what your (or the DM's) particular play time is. There is more DM presence now, but I think previous situations similar to the one above have made me lean away from pvp of that nature.

If anything I would say keep the LA where it currently is and instead adjust the starting level for various races. Perhaps a system of Standard Starting Level + ECL = Modified Starting Level.

So an ECL 2 character would start at level 4 for example, ECL 3 starts at level 5. Considering that characters of this nature are relatively rare and generally need pretty well developed applications to begin with, I believe DMs might entrust these added levels to a player.

As it stands, you can already blast to level 5 pretty quickly on the server, depending on your level of effort, and more people have been reaching the level 7 or 8 mark as well.

Starting with added levels also would cut an ECL character out of a lot of the early supply perks, so it's not all sunshine and smiles with the level boost.

[Tyrael]

As it stands, you can already blast to level 5 pretty quickly on the server, depending on your level of effort, and more people have been reaching the level 7 or 8 mark as well.

Seriously? What the heck have YOU been grinding? It took me months to get to level 5 on the old EfU, and none of my EfUA chars have topped level 4 yet.

[Equinox]

i made a character, cale colt.

i got him to 8 in 8 days.

if you powerquest hard enough. its possible.

[Caddies]

I did not generally kill monsters with my PCs because they were pathetic to kill with a fully equipped PC. With ECL most monsters are pretty terrible, except for a few exceptions, and it's really no fun to just walk over things in PvP. I just end up feeling very guilty in the end. I guess killing stuff that you've had no real interaction with, just because of what they are, seems for the most part contrived to me and not very fun for the other player. Because of this I just tend to avoid monsters if my PC would likely want to crush their skulls. If they were more powerful I would have no regrets with hunting them down and killing them, I think it would be a lot of fun, probably.

ECL is for the most part designed to balance a single questing party for traditional DnD. It does not make a whole lot of sense to balance a hated killing machine, when it is the imbalance of the creature that makes them interesting to fight, and hate. These monsters aren't supposed to be balanced, because if they're balanced, then they're not really that scary. Besides, I would go so far as to say that for the most part having two or three more levels, is far greater then any bonus for any subrace besides possibly Wereboar, or Lizardfolk.

My sentiments exactly. This is the essence of my suggestion, despite the thread being derailed long ago.

[Underbard]

Most people play monstrous races for the challenge.  Changing things that would take away from the challenge, would take away from the experience as well.  I have seen low level monster races played beautifully, whereas my PC still didn't want to kill them, though he really didn't like them, Ixtiotl being on of them, for example.
  I think it is up to the PC's playing these races to accept the challenge, not up to us to lower the standards for them.

[Jasede]

I will just add that a friend of mine, a mechanically savvy player I respect a lot and who played plenty ECL characters, told me that ECL is really not "worth it" for the reasons Caddies already listed.

[bob7el]

For reasons already stated (particularly by Gippy) I think lowering ECL or removing it altogether would be fine, as long as the prevalence of uncommon races remains consistent with previous standards.