Subraces

[Caddies]

This will no doubt be controversial, but I suggest that all subrace ECLs are dropped by one. So ECL3 becomes ECL2, ECL1 becomes ECL0, etc. Perhaps as a consequence, stricter standards for subrace applications.

I know in the past there's been talk of removing ECL completely, and that it would not have been suggested in the first place did it not have at least some merit. This may be an alternative middle ground, who knows!

Having played a few ECL PCs, I can honestly say that you really need to spam quests at an insane, almost consuming rate to really be considered on par with everyone else. The fact is you can't be a scary werewolf on L3 and you can't be a badass orog on L4, short of min/maxing to the extreme which nobody likes to see. And while you're questing so hard, you're missing out on enjoying your character by interacting with the setting.

People will recall the Sewer Drow, but unless I am mistaken ECL was changed after them -and indeed, because of them- to be more harsh. The Drow were, however, a DM faction with lots of DM support and consisted of a group of very talented, very dedicated veterans who quite simply knew how to bulldoze quests easily, and had the group for it from the get-go.

I guess I am saying that in more cases than not, the XP penalties subraces take seldom match their bonuses from a playing standpoint, and that I'd love to see some (in lieu of all) of that XP penalty shaved off.

Thoughts?

[Nihm]

I think that being a visible monster such as an Orog is enough of a drawback that Ecl isn't needed for them.  Similarly, if the stigma against werecreatures persists they perhaps should have their Ecl waived on a trial basis.
 
Things like Tiefling, Aasimar and genasai don't have the same disadvantages, so their ecl should remain as they get perks like very helpful elemental resistance and higher stats which ought to be balanced by some sort of drawback.

[Gippy]

Nihm sums up my views exactly. A good suggestion.

[Ommadawn]

I think this has merit as well.

[Random_White_Guy]

I personally agree, having played numerous Subraces on the old EFU.

Here on the new surface I feel RP itself is justifiable, and the XP harshing is somewhat moot, much as Caddies does.

I managed to get lucky enough with my old Werewolf to have a few situations pop up where people feared me through RP, alone, not because I managed to have a level 6 guy who went around mauling PCs.

RP should be justifiably difficult.

That being said however, There should be stricter standards of play expected upon the Subrace PC's.

An Aasimar or Tiefing or whatever your race is, should be -known to the public-. You shouldn't be "Ted, that adventuring Paladin who happens to be an Aasimar", you should be "Holy shit that Goody-Two-shoes Aasimar who makes us all look bad named Ted isn't just a pain in the ass by blood, but was Chosen by a God to be better than all of us". Pc's should be expected, if not Forced if they don't, to be fairly blatant about most of their traits through RP. Maybe with enough bluff you can avoid it, but most Subraces should be publicly known if you are in the public enough. As well, other PC's must step up and form their own views and judgements about said subraces. Maybe other paladins are jealous of Ted. Maybe Criminals target him since he's percieved as a bigger threat. The works.

I really feel that the Rping of a subrace is alot of fun, as my track record can show I've dealt alot in the non-human-subrace-application realm of the server, I hope my feelings hold some weight.

Yes, If you dive into a quest with a good group, you'll roll through it and get levels. But that's said of being Normal Humans, let alone the awesome perks that come with being a Werewolf or Duergar or Drow or what have you.

If you wish individuals to have trouble questing, Cultivate a sincerely anti-monster vibe like there has been, maybe some witch hunts, or any other RP tools that can go to great lengths to Both strengthen the RP of a monster (I loved being hunted as a Lycan, it was half the fun) and makes wandering into public quest areas far more difficult.

Two cents, take them as you will.

[Dr Dragon]

I say lower ECL as long as monster popularity is lowered. Srsly I found it odd one could go. "I AM THE BOAR LORD!" And no one having a problem. I honestly think Ecl should be lowered yes as long as an Anti monster vibe is encouraged. I feel Dms should be more tough on monster apps so they act like monsters. More monsters doing monstrous things PLZ

[Snoteye]

While balance is not my area of expertise, I'll chime in because the sub race system is. LA will never be removed despite some (former) DMs' wishes, and no sub race with LA will have its LA removed. It is very possible some (or even many) races need their LA adjusted, but, again, that isn't my area (I'm just the grunt doing the work). I can reveal that we recently increased the LA of a certain sub race, however.

As for higher standards, I don't think that's going to happen for a number of reasons I can't be arsed to list.

[Kilaya76]

The charm of having orogs, werewolves, drows, etc is that they are more powerful than other races. If I am to fight a secret drow organization, I want them to be powerful, not lvl 3 wretches that would be unable to give any challenge.
 
As for balance, the fact of being universally hated by pretty much everyone makes surviving difficult enough without need of ECL.
 
I'm all for completely removing ECL. And btw, I don't play an ELC character.

[ScottyB]

I'd be more in favor of using a balancing system unique to EFUA - like a straight, variable percentage of XP deducted from rewards so that each race can be balanced more precisely than ECL1, 2 or 3.

But, that'd take a lot of creative and technical energy to work out, and the DM team would be better focused on its awesome plottage right now, I think.

[Listen in Silence]

Even though I don't play an ECL character, nor plan to do so ever, I'd support removing ECL, or reducing it drastically. It's making characters that should be monstrous and fearsome into pathetic low lvls that any normal PC could swat like a fly, removing the entire point of the subraces, or rather their advantages.

[Egon the Monkey]

My two cents:
ECL is there to make the PCs more difficult to rev up to higher levels, so they remain balanced, right?
So, how about keeping the system, and letting all subrace PCs start at say l4 or 5 straight up so they start of reasonably nasty, but find it much harder than normal PCs to spam quests to become badass.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I would be for this, but I would like to see PC's reacting to monsters as they should.

[Pup]

In my endless concepting, I devised an app. for an ECL char to start at lvl 4 (should Mingo ever go down)  I have always heard this is possible as long as the application is sufficiently awesome.

[Gippy]

I would be for this, but I would like to see PC's reacting to monsters as they should.

You can leave that to the players, thanks.

[RIPnogarD]

There is actually a set way to determine a creatures effective character level ( [COLOR="lightblue"]ECL[/COLOR] ).