Renovating Throwing Weapons (Slings too!)

[ScruffyMcSmirkalot]

Hello, this post started after I began to reply to the Throwing Axes suggestion... and I started expanding so much that I figured it would be better as its own suggestion. I provide a "TL;DR" at the end of this post.

This is a fair point of discussion, actually. Though... I think it's better to analyze this a bit more in-depth, rather than "Waaaaaaaaaaahhhh, my thematic weapon of choice sucks, make it better Mommy!" that usually comes with narrow weapon improvement posts.

Let's start with a few raw stat comparisons from NWN to D&D 3/3.5E

[SIZE="4"]NWN:[/SIZE]

Arrows
-Weight: 0lbs each
-Stack: 99 each
-Base Damage: 1d6 or 1d8, x3 crit, determined by bow

Bolts
-Weight: 0lbs each
-Stack: 99 each
-Base Damage: 1d8 or 1d10, 19-20/x2 crit, determined by crossbow

Bullets
-Weight: 0lbs each
-Stack: 99 each
-Base Damage: 1d4, x2 crit

Darts
-Weight: 0.1 lbs each
-Stack: 50 each
-Base Damage: 1d4, x2 crit

Shuriken
-Weight: 0lbs each
-Stack: 50 each
-Base Damage: 1d3, x2 crit

Throwing Axes
-Weight: 1lbs each
-Stack: 50 each
-Base Damage: 1d6, x2 crit

[SIZE="4"]D&D 3/3.5E:[/SIZE]

Arrows
-Weight: 0.15 lbs each
-Stack: 20 each
-Base Damage: Same

Bolts
-Weight: 0.1 lbs each
-Stack: 10 each
-Base Damage: Same

Bullets
-Weight: 0.5 lbs each
-Stack: 10 each
-Base Damage: Same

Darts
-Weight: 0.5 lbs each
-Stack: N/A
-Base Damage: Same

Shuriken
-Weight: 0.1 lbs each
-Stack: N/A (Well, in 3.5E they changed it to sold in stacks of 5)
-Base Damage: ... Do we really have to go here? in 3E, they did 1 damage a piece, and could be thrown three at a time; in 3.5E, they did 1d2 damage a piece, but could only be thrown one a time. Always x2 crit.

Throwing Axes
-Weight: 4lbs each in 3E, 2lbs each in 3.5E
-Stack: N/A
-Base Damage: Same

[SIZE="5"]Additional Mechanical Notes:[/SIZE]

Mighty: Thrown weapons (Except Shurikens) automatically take into account your Strength Score for damage, while Bows, Crossbows, and Slings all need the Mighty property to accomplish this. This is true in NWN, but D&D had some difference... Mighty didn't really exist as a magical property in 3.0E or 3.5E (At least in the base rules). It's like the NWN programmers created the mighty property to represent composite bows (Which took into account STR bonuses for bows), and then just made it applicable to all ranged weapons. Thrown weapons, except for Shuriken and Slings in 3E, took into account one's STR bonus. 3.5E, they modified this so that Slings did also, based on how Slings physically work.

Ammo Life: In NWN, all ammunition and thrown weapons are destroyed upon use. In D&D, this is far different. All ranged ammunition (Arrows, Bolts, Bullets) are destroyed upon a hit, and have a 50% chance to be destroyed on a miss. Throw weapons are not destroyed upon use. The exception to this are Shuriken, which I believe changed from 3E to 3.5E from simply a thrown weapon to some sort of thrown weapon/ammunition hybrid, and thus, in 3.5E, they follow the same rules as Arrows, Bolts, and Bullets.

Range: Range, in terms of attack range, doesn't really exist in NWN. In D&D, such existed, with bows and crossbows having vastly superior range compared to thrown weapons, with slings forming the middle ground between the two.

Shuriken: Meh, wierd eastern weapons, it should be noted that they could be thrown three at a time in 3E. I don't even think the 3rd Edition designers really knew what to do with Shuriken.

Storage: In NWN, storage is this abstract grid based inventory system. In D&D, it depended on the GM, but essentially, you weren't going to be carrying 5x 99 stacks of arrows. A quiver generally held 20 arrows. You carried maybe 1-3 throwing axes, and perhaps more in your backpack. You get the idea.

Combat Usage: In NWN, combat is constant, and often. In D&D, not so much (Well, in comparison anyway). Often one would have trouble going through a quiver of 20 arrows in one encounter (Maybe even in 2 encounters). In EFU, on a quest you could easily go through a stack of 99 arrows, if not more.

Feel free to add any other mechanical things I forgot to mention.

[SIZE="5"]Thoughts with the above information:[/SIZE]
As can be seen above, the designers of NWN reduced the weight of both ammunition and throwing weapons, since combat was much more frequent in NWN, and having players having to constantly go to stores for more ammo would have really broken the immersion. Add in the fact that NWN threw "range" advantages and calculations out the window, then it's obvious that this needed to be done to not make ranged weapons practically useless. Ranged weapons in NWN needed to have an abundant supply of ammo and not take up too much inventory. This allowed ranged weapons to have a few tactical uses.

I'm pretty sure the programmers at Bioware didn't really want to have to design and implement a robust ranged weapon mechanic. They didn't want to deal with Thrown weapons operating differently, they didn't want to deal with ammo survival calculations and mechanics (as this would slow down the game), they didn't want to fandangle with quivers... they just wanted a unified ranged weapon system that handled everything, and they'd program in some minor difference for certain weapon sets. At the end of the day, thrown weapons got the shaft I think, simply because they were there for flavor, and Bioware had more important stuff to worry about.

[SIZE="5"]Suggestion as to how to improve a number of weapons (and slings):[/SIZE]

From what I've seen in the past, GMs have tried spicing up primarily bullets, darts, and shuriken by making more certain varieties available (and prevalent) with special magical properties. This is a novel idea, and would make them useful and popular... but I think one should look at how these weapons are being used.

Sure, there is the occasional player that is focused on these weapons, but said players are likely to have easily made a character using any other less popular weapon that wasn't focused. The primary use we see is they're used as splash weapons (like Tanglebag, Holy Water, etc.), pretty much. Everyone carries a sling in EFU. Why? Because, you can collect a stack of holy bullets, dungballs, etc, and use them against some enemy that's immune to your normal attacks. Same with Darts and Shuriken really. In the case of slings and darts, they've been relegated as secondary weapons to only be deployed when all other ranged attacks have failed.

Furthermore, bullets don't have weight, and only take up one space in your inventory, so you might as well stack them up. Darts still have weight, but one would keep as much as one was able to, provided they had the right effects.If I'm not mistaken, this was also done for throwing axes, though to a lesser extent, since they're still seen as a relatively powerful weapon.

So, what else could be done?

Hmmmm... Well, one could take all that ammunition have weight. This would be fair, but it would introduce the earlier mentioned problem of immersion breaking, and players having to constantly go back to town to get ammunition. If your setting was total survival, where supplies are REALLY scarce, I think this would be nifty, but I don't see EFU:M as quite that survivalist. Then this leads into having everything else in the world having weight, and eventually, people will be carrying 500lbs of gold pieces :p (That, and I don't want to be the guy known as the one that caused the "Thousand Archer Whine")

Personally, I think... Thrown weapons in NWN are practically treated as ammunition, when in fact they should be mostly singular weapons. I mean, can you imagine an adventurer that carries around 99 throwing axes? Might as well call it "Thrown Axe Plate" (<-Props to whoever draws this). Instead, I think we should have a total stack of thrown weapons equivalent to about five of them in D&D. Totally pulled that number out of my ass, feel free to suggest others, just using for illustration purposes. This is sort of compromise between not having to go and retrieve your throwing weapon, while at the same time having your throwing weapon destroyed on use. So, it would break down like this:

Darts: 50 @ 2.5lbs
Throwing Axes: 3E 50 @ 20lbs or 3.5E 50 @ 10lbs

As for implementing this in game, I'm not too knowledgeable on toolset or scripting. If this could not be done directly (and easily), perhaps we could approximate by having all Darts and Throwing Axes in EFU have the default property "Base Item Weight Reduction", sort of like how "Disarm" is common on whips? Darts could have 40% or 60%, putting them at 2lbs or 3lbs per 50, and have Throwing Axes at 40% or 20% (20 and 10lbs on 50), depending on if you're using the 3E or 3.5E weight. This would make Darts and Throwing axes much more manageable. It's not quite consistent with the roleplay I think, but I suppose this non consistency is equivalent to the lack of horses, so it should work out.

For Slings? Eh... I'd say make them closer to their 3.5E brethren. I'd like to see them use the PC's full strength bonus, as well as giving the bullets weight in line somewhere with darts and throwing axes to accommodate this. No idea how possible this would be to implement... but I think it would be nice seeing these as weapons in their own right instead of utility devices. This could be done simply by making them all the maximum value of Mighty (like +10 or +20). Not sure how you'd implement increasing the weight of bullets.

No idea what to do about Shuriken. Like most Asian imports in this setting, they're wierd and hard to figure what to do with them. 1d3 doesn't really cover the pretty broken 3E mechanic of throwing three at a time for 1 damage a piece... In 3.5E, they dropped it to one per attack and 1d2 damage, however this took into account that Monk Flurry of Blows at level 11 gave 2 bonus attacks, I'm sure.

The downside to the "Easier" implementations I mentioned for both Slings and Throwing Axes/Darts are that they really mess with pricing of the items, which affects Merchants and UMD. Though I don't really know what custom systems EFU uses. What could be done, without changing the whole system, is do a trial run with basic non-magical variants of these axes and darts, at base price, available from some merchant, that are marked stolen or plot, with the reduced weight values, and observe how well they work in EFU. The same could be done with the Mighty Slings, however the ammunition out there wouldn't be weighted, and therefore slings would overtake darts completely.

[SIZE="6"]TL;DR:[/SIZE]

• Decrease weight of stacks of all Darts by roughly 40-60%
• Decrease weight of stacks of all Throwing Axes by roughly 60-80%
• Increase weight of all bullets to be in-line with Darts and Throwing Axes, and give all Slings a maximum Mighty bonus by default.
• As a trial run, should it feel necessary, introduce base non-magical Darts and Throwing Axes with the decreased weight available at a (or multiple) merchant(s), at the basic price of normal Darts and Throwing Axes.

Welp, I look forward to further discussion on this. There's definitely more that could be said, and many things I left out, but I thought I'd start with approaching it from this angle.

[VanillaPudding]

Halfling slingers do not need any help with free mighty on their slings. At least not in my opinion ;)

[Blazing Blade]

I'm'a totally nitpick now!
I'm sorry to say it, but Mighty did indeed exist in 3.0, not as magical properties, no, but as added craftsmanship bonuses.
Only on composite short/longbows, though!

And yes. I am quite a nerd.

[ScruffyMcSmirkalot]

I'm'a totally nitpick now!
I'm sorry to say it, but Mighty did indeed exist in 3.0, not as magical properties, no, but as added craftsmanship bonuses.
Only on composite short/longbows, though!

And yes. I am quite a nerd.

Bolded for emphasis:

... Mighty didn't really exist as a magical property in 3.0E or 3.5E (At least in the base rules). It's like the NWN programmers created the mighty property to represent composite bows (Which took into account STR bonuses for bows), and then just made it applicable to all ranged weapons...

But I appreciate you keeping an eye open for any mistakes I may have made, and look forward to further discussion you may add concerning the suggestion being implemented in EFU. :)

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

Throwing weapons have always been awkward to do, as you have to manually change their weight (weight reduction) as a magical property in the toolset, and that instantly boosts their 'value' up to unaffordable levels in shops.  So you're relying on 'drops', which as your post noted, are relatively easy to obtain - they're not common, but not rare either, and most characters will have a few spare for trade or sale.

[RuinedDesires]

You could create Ammo creators, which take a set amount of gold per use of the item. Combine that with an OOC description of only usable by BLANK and you have a nice reward for anyone based on such a weapon.

[One_With_Nature]

Alternatively if desireable you could have a tool that you can target certain ammo/throwing weapons with a tool that can be pruchased from a vendor(s) and have the tool work as a portable merchant duplicated a stack of said throwables and deducting the cost. I rarely use ranged weapons (except on a rogue where damage comes from sneak attack) so i have little input on any alterations to ranged weapon damage boost or anything to that effect @ the mighty comment at least. I know that there are a lot of bullets available IG along with craftable bullets (some very nice ones so it doesn't seem necessary).

[Nihm]

All shuriken should be mighty, and bows with a higher degree of Mighty should be more common.  An archer variant for fighter, ranger and barbarian would help make shooters more common too.
 
Ranged weapons are seen as a wimpy and ineffective mainstay of weak characters and nothing more - exempting perhaps in the hands of a rogue.
 
The only proper way to do things is supposed to be a few heavily buffed melee characters carrying the team.
 
Killing enemies from a distance is currently an option that is severely underused, and could benefit with some help to make it more popular.

[EveryoneIsAWinner]

Archers can be insanely scary on EFU, Do not count them out.
Also, killing enemies from a distance can turn into:
"Luring them over in small groups, because when someone is shot they ask only the few people near them to run over and check it out"
 
So ranged combat gets kinda Cheesey in Nwn.

[shadesofblack]

Abusing AI in that manner is against the rules.

Edit - On topic: I don't think slings need the Mighty property, as much sense as that would make, but I do think it would be cool to see more dart and throwing axe users about. I like the suggestion to lower their weights, especially throwing axes.

[Brimstone Sermon]

Nuke:
The easy solution to the price change is to re-institute a something like  the Arrowhead. It only sells throwing weapons marked Plot, and the Merchant's sale price is dialed down so he sells everything at 2gp.

Scruffy:
it's worth noting that you can cast Magic Weapon on Darts and Throwing Axes to give them a +1 Enhancement Bonus. It's the only reliable way for a ranged character to pierce DR, and so worth knowing about. I did this when I played a Slinger.

VP:
If you are a slinger and want STR bonuses to crush something, all you do is use a Wand of Magic Weapon on a stack of Darts or whip out some powerful questloot ones. You have the same AB as with a Wep Focused Sling and you cut past X/+1 DR. Mighty isn't a PVP gamebreaker as you can already do better. It is a PVE boost for non sneak-attackers and rewards not minmaxing 10 STR 20 DEX.

Craftable Bullets only really work if you have access to a garden of a specific herb, so they're not practical unless we get a merchant who sells that herb. Drops aren't reliable and due to the silly auto-reload mechanics of NWN you can burn them out fast.

One other thing I'd bring up is that the class perks that give DR are especially powerful against archers because their damage is lower anyway.Something worth considering both for PVP and for mobs with ranged weapons with regards to available ammo.

[EveryoneIsAWinner]

Abusing AI in that manner is against the rules.
 
Edit - On topic: I don't think slings need the Mighty property, as much sense as that would make, but I do think it would be cool to see more dart and throwing axe users about. I like the suggestion to lower their weights, especially throwing axes.

I've seen a good deal of new players on EFU try it, and I have repeatedly told a few to stop and they dont >.>

[BlackLion]

Have the dwarves sell bad-ass dwarven throwing axes that only weigh 5 lbs instead of 50, similar to the stargazer tomahawks but more bad-ass because dwarves made them > : |

Throwing weapons have always been awkward to do, as you have to manually change their weight (weight reduction) as a magical property in the toolset, and that instantly boosts their 'value' up to unaffordable levels in shops.  So you're relying on 'drops', which as your post noted, are relatively easy to obtain - they're not common, but not rare either, and most characters will have a few spare for trade or sale.

Can't you manually reduce item value as well in the tool-set?

[Brimstone Sermon]

No, but you can reduce or inflate the price at which a shop sells everything. Therefore the solution is to set the shopkeeper to sell everything at a 95% discount, and only stock improved throwing weapons.