The state of Alchemy

[Nihm]

Here are a few observations that I have about alchemy.
 
First is that a huge amount of ooc information is available that makes it easy for many people to know exactly what needs to be combined together.  All of this was available in the hints, but obscured and formerly not well known.  It has been passed about now, making things easier in general.  Also knowledge of which perils are associated with which fields of alchemy, and how to protect against them.
 
Second factor that makes things easier is how a head start is allowed for the alchemist.  Formerly there was no time to start running before the reaction finished and something nasty could spawn.  Now there's a lot of time to get some distance.
 
Third factor is the in-character passing around of recipes.
 
Fourth is multiple alchemists played by the same people, sometimes at the same time.  They may do things like acquire the notebooks of the former alchemist when one dies, or not, but even if not, the more former alchemists someone has played the more generally easy they will find it.
 
All of this means things have gotten much easier, that a great deal of alchemy loot is present in the game economy, and that much more is to come.
 
I think alchemy was supposed to be there to give researchers and experimenters something they could actually do without a dm, and that it succeeds very well in doing that.  It probably wasn't meant to fill the server to the brim with loot that was made with very little risk or effort in proportion to the hazards that are intended to be there.

[Zan]

Delete and generate a new alchemy table every two months or so.

[Random_White_Guy]

Alchemy has always been something that people usually safe-guarded. Lately though there has been an IC trend of a free exchange of ideas. While this is fine and cool, and does indeed propogate more alchemy on the server, there is always the alternative:

Alchemy is an Achilles's heel. Think of Cold War Nuclear Scientists.

Alchemists can be bullied, beaten, hunted, pursued. Alchemists can band together to limit other alchemists, or come together to spread them. Alchemists can hide their trade and secretly supply their allies or publicly hawk their wares.

A lot of IC actions, both proactive and reactive, can be taken. Personally I believe the system is fine as is.

Fourth is multiple alchemists played by the same people, sometimes at the same time. They may do things like acquire the notebooks of the former alchemist when one dies, or not, but even if not, the more former alchemists someone has played the more generally easy they will find it.

DMs watch what is done with and around alchemy, and many a character has been nuked in the past for "Notes".

Your last point though I think is true of anything in EFU.

"The more former someone has played, the more generally easy they will find it".

Former PCs that are heavy on PvP will allow a PC to easier PvP with next, and so on.

[Aethereal]

"The more former someone has played, the more generally easy they will find it".

Former PCs that are heavy on PvP will allow a PC to easier PvP with next, and so on.

Yes, it is merely the truism that we learn from experience.

The crafting system as is, is very rewarding but does require a  heavy time investment, especially for that alchemist who covets and hides their trade.

A recurring issue that arises in IRC discussion is that the whole system leads players to digress from the primary offering of EFU; and there are some vehement proponents of this sentiment. That is to say, by spending hours upon hours at the alchemy table going through combinations, is removing the time that could be spent in what we call being "proactive."

One benefit that I personally note which lessens the clout of the above sentiment is of the system is in its function as a filler for when the server is in a lull, and literally nobody else is online; good luck being 'proactive,' with yourself!

Another note is that the system is finite, once one learns the ins and outs and has a capable mind, it really is impossible to not know what you're doing; why should there be a penalty introduced to combat this?

I find RWG's post reveals how we, as a community can be 'proactive,' by thinking creatively in how we apply this system to our concepts. The potential is clearly revealed in his examples for making this more than just about flooding the server with loot.

There are many potential solutions to the problem of powerful item inflation derived from the crafting system though. The limits on how many times the more potent items can be created are an effective example.

All of this was available in the hints, but obscured and formerly not well known. It has been passed about now, making things easier in general.

Not that I ever had this problem. And I will honestly admit I was always amused by how many people missed it. But this was just an advantage that the more observant and thorough or the 'veteran' had over others.

I cannot help but detect that type of elitism we so often encounter in our online gaming worlds from this very sentiment. I do not mean this in any negative way, merely an observation.

We can look at it as a form of obscurantism that seems to have been the preferred state of affairs.

[Pigadig]

It is me. I am the new guy. I am the problem.

Please don't hurt me.

[Aethereal]

It is me. I am the new guy. I am the problem.

Please don't hurt me.

Repent thy sins and all shalt be forgiven. :twisted:

[KillerB]

cleansing steam ruining PvP balance 100%

[Brimstone Sermon]

"The more former someone has played, the more generally easy they will find it".

Generally true, but alchemy's intentionally meant to be obscure both IC and OOC, and that's enforced by the DMs. On the other hand, you can get a basic grounding in how to PVP from asking around in IRC. With crafting, you could build a PC with a fantastic Herbalism score, but have no idea OOC how to get started and direct your research as opposed to random combinations of reagents until you hit the jackpot.

I think what alchemy could do with is actually making it easier to get going, not harder. As in a guide on the alchemy menu or website that explains some of the very basic stuff. Not "How to make X", but something that alerts players to the importance of noting what visual effects and failure messages they get. That lets them know you can buff the alchemy table to stop your spells blowing it up. The sort of thing that's plainly obvious from the character's point of view but not to a player who won't know the difference between system feedback and flavour effects. Johannes mentioned this in passing on the original announcement, but it's not that clear to players new to the system. So they spam things randomly until they get bored with failure or are eaten by demons.


As far as power goes, a lot of alchemy/herbalism loot is both powerful and unrestricted. If some consumables are being spammed, perhaps make them decay on reset as 'they are too volatile to hold on to'. Or make them bound to the character that created them, and undroppable 'because only you can work this precisely enough'. That would work best with on-target effects because that way you can help someone else with them but you have to be there to do it. That means that an alchemist can have a stockpile of consumables or arm allies up for an expected fight, but it prevents power transfer to the current degree. If you know something's only good for one reset, you can always stockpile precursors and build it on demand. Anything that you can only make X times should be tradeable because it's already limited that way. Alchemy and herbalism then become more of a means to give a PC more firepower, and less of a goldmine. I don't think it's a particular issue, but if you can reliably make something at no risk or XP cost, you knock the bottom out the potions market for example.

[River Walker]

I just made an alchemist because my computer is slow and I die a lot. This thread makes it seem very confusing. Is there something I should be doing with my character besides alchemy?

[Nihm]

This thread is about the loot glut that occurs when a crafting system becomes too well known, and how it could be addressed.  But . . .
 
You're not "supposed" to do anything. Don't worry about that comment.  People who tell you what you're supposed to be doing are themselves wasting time on the forums rather than being in game doing what they're "supposed" to be doing.
 
You're not alone.  I built my computer out of wood before plastic was invented, and it really shows on the loading times, frame stutter and occasional freeze.

[LiAlH4]

I do believe that the acquisition of the ingredients and resources necessary to be a successful alchemist should be more difficult than, "let's go see what kind of berries the kid in the Market Hall has today".

Otherwise the system is working well. Alchemy is dangerous, especially with complex experiments, and holds plenty of opportunity for intrigue.

[core]

The alchemy system is incredibly complex, and as with any of our other similarly complex systems, allows for exploitative players to get an edge. The same is true with the NWN engine and the nature of the game; players who metagame, item transfer or abuse transitions gain an unfair advantage.

That isn't to say that we don't pay attention to such things and punish them when they appear, as well as taking preventative measures such as reshuffling the alchemy tables.

As regards the post preceding the one above, it is totally acceptable to play an alchemist concept on EfU. It's a sweet system and it's there to be enjoyed.

[Porkolt]

I think what alchemy could do with is actually making it easier to get going, not harder. As in a guide on the alchemy menu or website that explains some of the very basic stuff. Not "How to make X", but something that alerts players to the importance of noting what visual effects and failure messages they get. That lets them know you can buff the alchemy table to stop your spells blowing it up. The sort of thing that's plainly obvious from the character's point of view but not to a player who won't know the difference between system feedback and flavour effects. Johannes mentioned this in passing on the original announcement, but it's not that clear to players new to the system. So they spam things randomly until they get bored with failure or are eaten by demons.

I think this would actually do a lot to solve the problems that are being addressed in this thread.

Even established alchemists have to reboot their research when they make a new PC. The only way to actually get started, though, is either by doing an in-depth study of an extremely complex system (which is extremely challenging, even if a rewarding experience) or by, well. Having another player tell you outright.

I think the latter is the way almost all players get started.

It's kind of like nuclear power. If you're buddies with the guys that already know how to work it, they'll show you how to do it too. If you're not, however, you're going to have to do all the work yourself, and meanwhile have to deal with the people already knowing trying to bog you down to safeguard their monopoly.

And because something analogous to Iran developing nuclear weapons and unleashing WW3 would actually be pretty cool to see happen in EFU, I think spreading the knowledge to at least give people who have no idea what they're doing a chance to enjoy this obviously so very interesting and rewarding system is a very good idea.

[Lenthis]

Well, You can learn the messages and the like IG, For example, At Raliths Academy of Alchemy!

[Big Orc Man]

If you're aware of a player using the same recipes on different characters, please report it to us via the private report forum.

That player will, at the bare minimum, have their characters retired.  Banning is also possible.