Important questions about PvP.

[WildPirate13]

Hello.

I have noticed a heavy amount of PvP and disjoints in players in regards to what they can and cannot get away with. I have noticed alot of ambushs etc on new players. Even when the assailant is called out they will use disguises/excuses such as Blur and StoneSkin as saying there did not actually do it!!

Direct LOS or line of sight is pretty simple. I am curious about this ruling and am a little disturbed at the amount of PvP and well no offense intended PvP by villans and people that think they will not have repercussions for attacking other players.

The impression I was given by one of my many attackers so far was due to blur and stoneskin I could not make positive ID even though I had direct line of sight.

If this is the case I would ask the rules be revisited and the PvP rules to be revisited as well. Open season pvp and easy immunity to PvP combat such as Blur or Stoneskin is very very unbalanced. It would drive a great deal of players away from the server in addition.

PvP and poorly handled PvP can drive away many players very quickly. Thats why I am asking the questions. Good gaming and have fun.

[Porkolt]

EFU definitely does not suffer from the problem of people refusing to accept the repercussions of misdeeds. Sooner the opposite. It is considered sporting to give them a chance by way of examples like you just made.

[tropic]

The best way to resolve something like this is to get a DM ruling. You could ask in the DM channel in-game, or on the DM Question & Answer forum.

I suspect that you were not targeted specifically because you are a new player. Most veteran players, if they subdue a new player or a very low-level PC, will not steal from him or her and may even apologize in tells.

[LaceAndLeather]

I do think the players of certain PCs, particularly those with PvP-oriented concepts or 'goals', could exercise a bit more caution when it comes to targeting new or struggling players on the server. I understand the rules and the idea behind PvP here, and I actually quite enjoy it, personally; that being said, however, I think the key here is that people should keep in mind that the RP should always be worth the PvP.

Assaulting, subduing, and robbing other characters with a half-assed singular line of dialogue doesn't constitute "roleplay" for most people, and it's understandable that there's been a mild degree of frustration from some peopl (only chiming in here because I've been witness to a couple not-so-terrific instances in the past week or two that have left some people with a bitter taste in their mouths).

It's almost never PvP that people have a problem with; it's how you choose to approach it. It's supposed to be fun—for everyone.

[OrneryBadger]

^ Assuming they know it's a new player, of course.
 
Blurs and Stoneskin and high enough lvl bark to show the vfx would indeed make IDing an assailant later diffcult. You could determine broad features such as gender, height, build, and facial structure - and it's difficult to examine someone in detail while your both flailing around with swords.
 
EFU can cause some culture shock with a very high conflict orientation, and if you ever have any concerns or are upset I encourage you to talk them out immediatly. Also don't let the carrying on in IRC phase you.
 
As someone whose not a fan of PVP themselves or, wasn't, I can confide PVP and getting PVP'd have been some of my biggest adjustment problems at EFU, because it can carry such harsh consequences such as loss of items, consumables, or even perma-raise required death.
 
Rest assured however people only 'get away' with villainy and conflict if they do it intelligently, villains can and are be smacked with consequences just as harshly as those they predate upon.
 
Edit: As for the comment above I agree, but the brevity of interaction may itself be roleplay, loitering around the area you just attacked someone in is unwise for any brigand especially in an area that see's foot traffic, and a situation isn't always conducive to blackout or dragging someone off.

[Jayde Moon]

Here is a basic list of PvP rules:

http://www.escapefromundeath.com/documentation/conduct/pvp-rules

PvP can be a touchy subject in any environment.  It is definitely an important part of the EfU Setting.  We try to maintain balance and fairness in the application, but understand that for a variety of reasons, PvP may not always fit nicely into everyone's definition of what is fair.

We have had an influx of several new players and this is a great thing.  From what I have seen, all of these players are excellent additions to the EfU server and I personally am excited to see them.  That said, many of them are still getting used to the rules, both written and 'unspoken'.  In some cases this means getting used to the harsh nature of some circumstances and in others it means getting used to doing things in a manner that provides fun for all players involved.

And that is the bottom line.  Using the rules as linked above, the next thing that a player about to engage in PvP should ask themselves is, "How is this fun for everyone else?"

To answer some of the OP's questions directly:

Disguises are a valid part of roleplay, common sense discretion is necessary.  It seems reasonable to me that a man who is under the effects of 'blur' and 'stoneskin' might be harder to pick out of a 'line-up' than a fellow who attacked you unhelmed and unspelled.

But such a disguise is not necessarily a be all end all 'you'll never figure it out' trick.  Height, weight, type of weapon used, type of armor worn, etc can all be clues to your assailants identity and in a medieval survivalist setting like EfU, certainty does not need to be absolute to rally the lynch mob.

React and respond IC according to the situation and you'll be fine.

If anyone has any specific problems with an incident, feel free to PM myself or another DM to discuss it, especially if you feel that the incident breaks one of the listed PvP rules directly.

[Seanzie]

I think that if I am stoneskined, and transparent, you wouldn't be able to recognize me by my helmet and height. That is after I thought you were newer, and saved you from dying from a cat. I did not subdue you or take your things, that said. I expected you to be a little less "I want to win" or "I saw your helmet and that means I recognize you". But more "I want both players to be satisfied with the situation". I felt that you wanted to "Win" or be the victor in the situation in the sense that you would automatically recognize me. But that is just my point of view.

[LaceAndLeather]

^ Assuming they know it's a new player, of course.

Absolutely. I don't even necessarily think new players should be given immunity - you're right, it's an adjustment to make - or anything of that nature. Just that they shouldn't feel cheated out of a good time by a mechanically unpleasant experience because of the lack of immersion.
 

As for the comment above I agree, but the brevity of interaction may itself be roleplay, loitering around the area you just attacked someone in is unwise for any brigand especially in an area that see's foot traffic, and a situation isn't always conducive to blackout or dragging someone off.

No, I definitely agree! But a bit of flavor prior to (assuming it's not an ambush from stealth or invisibility) and especially during the encounter is appreciated by everyone, I think, instead of getting smacked down by your attacker like we're playing WoW.

[LaceAndLeather]

I expected you to be a little less "I want to win" or "I saw your helmet and that means I recognize you". But more "I want both players to be satisfied with the situation". I felt that you wanted to "Win" or be the victor in the situation in the sense that you would automatically recognize me ...

Aaand, as the flipside of my original post, I see this as the roleplaying responsibility of the assaulted party. Being a sore loser is just as bad as skimping on the enjoyable interaction as an attacker. (Mind you, not accusing or defending anyone here. Don't know the situation. Might have gotten a bit off-topic now... Apologies.)

[LiAlH4]

It is good to remember that individuals who are playing dedicated bandits or criminals are running the risk of permadeath with every action they take. The response of most players when they subdue a bandit is to switch to full-death mode or drag them into town for a public execution! This is the price of a high-risk/high-reward concept, but more often than not, such characters are a boon to the server's atmosphere.

It is always prudent in PVP situations to give people the courtesy and benefit of the doubt that you would like for your own PC.

[OrneryBadger]

In any case if there's any sour grapes DM consultation is availible and advised and as someone who has totally been there before and let themselves get so twisted up they got all huffy and took extended breaks and made some very upset forum posts, I encourage you to find your center, relax, and try not to be so caught up in the state of your character because it'll only lead to heartburn.

[Letsplayforfun]

Disguise is not really supported on efum, so just ask yourself what will be more fun for everyone in the end.

Especially, make sure you're not metagaming stuff (like the little blue name above the attacker) or reporting everything just because you're pissed at loosing at pvp.

Barkskin, blur, stoneskin, etc, make it harder for someone to tell "who dun'it", but you still can. Maybe checking your spot skill can help. If you were downed in a few hits, you probably never saw what hit you, too...

So in the end it's up to you, with the above ooc/ic considerations.

As for general pvp, if you're hit regularly (especially at low lvl) and don't find it "suitable", just report it do a dm so that we make sure everything's being done properly. Read pvp rules, and remember you can be pvped wether you like it or not.

[OrneryBadger]

Defo talk to a DM if your ever upset, even experianced players can make mistakes in PVP and dms will step in to rectify the situation.

[Crump]

I think that if I am stoneskined, and transparent, you wouldn't be able to recognize me by my helmet and height. That is after I thought you were newer, and saved you from dying from a cat. I did not subdue you or take your things, that said. I expected you to be a little less "I want to win" or "I saw your helmet and that means I recognize you". But more "I want both players to be satisfied with the situation". I felt that you wanted to "Win" or be the victor in the situation in the sense that you would automatically recognize me. But that is just my point of view.

Unfortunately the bolded bit has been what most of my experience with pvp has amounted to. People seeing others through walls and rushing around to attack them, people metagaming who the attacker was when there would be no possible way to visually see them based on distance/fog/rain/night/angle, people expecting me to positively ID people based on their helmet/armor, etc. Every time I try to point that sort of stuff out in-character I feel like I am mocked or ignored for not metagaming enough.

[Random_White_Guy]

PvP is one of the best aspects of EFU and the community is a great supporter of such.

As its' been said a lot the best advice I can give is to seek out a DM. As a person who PvPs you just have to remember that sometimes things don't work out so great and roll with the punches, the same when you're attacked.

When in doubt, DM.