Feedback!

[Jayde Moon]

I wouldn't go so far as to say it is irrelevant.

Caddies is absolutely correct, and it is conceded, that no one except maybe the DMs have a full view of what's going on.  But the implication that because you don't have a full view you should just assume that things are tra-la-la, since you don't know any better, well, that's a rather arrogant standpoint.

ESPECIALLY given a thread where the DMs have asked specifically for feedback.  I'm certain that EfU:A's DMs know what Caddies knows: that no one has a full view.  Yet they asked for input anyway.

The DMs don't need anyone to tell the playerbase what sort of feedback is desired, needed, listened to, off-base, etc.  They don't need a receptionist trying to stop the bullshit traffic on its way in the door.  I'm certain they can sift through what's relevant and what's garbage for themselves.

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My feedback:

• I've been having fun.  Can't play as often for the moment and that is sad, because of the fun I'm having.
• PC "Villains", you know who you are, I think your characters are well developed and well played.  Bravo.
• I think that NPC support for factions is very unbalanced.  Stygians have a very heavy, visible, and (to some) menacing presence.  Other factions have little to no NPC presence.
• I would like to see more missions for the factions I'm involved in granted specifically by the NPCs involved in those factions.
• Be wary of 'Spice Overload'.  One session of a spiced adventure consisted of spamming the small party with a particularly nasty little spawn.  Then the boss was ubered up to untouchable and anytime we tried something new on him that might work, he suddenly had the counter to that to keep him invincible.  I ultimately enjoyed the session, but can't say the same for the others with me, all of whom died.
• Loot distribution.  It surprises me when I hear people who have been playing for a while talk about how they've gotten no DM loot.  DM loot is special and makes your PC feel that much more 'customized' to the player.

[PanamaLane]

And so, I'd just encourage everyone to make an interesting PC they enjoy playing, with a clear agenda, and pursue it IG as best they are able, through the thick and the thin. Victim syndrome isn't a fun development for anybody, especially not you.

Caddies, I think most of the trouble comes from people who do exactly this and then suffer through no DM attention or DM attention that gets their player killed with nothing to really show for it. I played a character for months that was working very hard to involve other players, actually working to help inform players (see more rumors sugesstion), and never got a DM to posses a single NPC, or put up a sign, or even give me a key to the faction I belonged to for months. Its was enormously frustrating, especially when characters like your own were doing essentially the same thing and seemingly getting everything they wanted.

Hell, we even got accepted to the same faction at the start, the fleet, and while you managed to get outfitted and go on cool trips and gernerally enjoy yourself, I never moved from an accepted application to actually spending a second in the faction because no DM's had the time to get me set up. When people talk about favortism there is no question there is slight nod to all those former DM's that are now players.

Mort, your responses almost always boil down to shifting the blame on we the the player. It just makes all of this seem so pointless. You've asked us what we think could be done better, we've told you. So, take that for what it is. There are a decent number of people who are unhappy, if you want to make them happier then listen to them and make some changes. If you'd rather we just went away then say that.

I swear, sometimes the DM-PC relationship here feels like an old marriage. Both sides nag each other and complain and nothing ever changes.

[Caddies]

Hell, we even got accepted to the same faction at the start, the fleet, and while you managed to get outfitted and go on cool trips and gernerally enjoy yourself, I never moved from an accepted application to actually spending a second in the faction because no DM's had the time to get me set up. When people talk about favortism there is no question there is slight nod to all those former DM's that are now players.

This is exactly my point.

People reference something that happened to them (one player out of dozens and dozens) and then make a sweeping statement. In this case, you perceived that I was given more advantages than you because I am 'favored', then go on to qualify that as a blanket statement for the whole server.

The reality is that I joined weeks before you, received one DM quest (the induction) which was run for us by Deputy only days before he left and I outfitted myself except the plate, which was granted after killing a higher-level slaver PC ala the First Bolt creed. There were tonnes of instances where I couldn't get a DM for a possession at all, and indeed couldn't further some of my PC's agendas due to lack of DM activity (most specifically Deputy leaving, which also ironically is perhaps the SOLE reason your dude did not get into the faction for so long, apart from the fact you logged in like five times a week).

Players not knowing the reality of the situation is the biggest problem, like I said before. Despite what WWind says, perceptions mean nothing and are in fact counterproductive most of the time, as in the case above.

This lack of information and reliance on perception to guage things is not the fault of the player. Its the nature of the beast. However, to mitigate it the best thing to do is perservere with your PC even when DM activity is low, and do your own thing until things look up.

Spend less time trying to assess how you're going in relation to others, then trying to come up with theories as to why that might be, and spend more time attempting to rock out even when it seems its not going to be appreciated. Do you play this game to one up others or to tell your PC's story?

[Madskillsmike]

I know I haven't played regularly for some time, now, and this might seem like it's out of place, but I'd just like to say I agree with Cruzel on one of his points there.

That point is that of the little nudges. Beyond just making a quest more challenging (that works too), giving the player those small hints, really simple events that might motivate them to do things they did not expect to, small situations in quest with the potential to generate conflict, that really simple mission of "go look for the generic orc/slaver/bandit/seeker who's been up to something."

Those little things are an amazing way to get people to be proactive and involve other people, when they usually wouldn't. I'd suggest doing something like that every once in a while, if you don't do that already.

[Joe Desu]

Interesting comments all around

A couple of things come to mind when dealing with satisfaction and fun.

Mechanical
Some are better at the mechanics than others.  For example my present ranger has high Hide and Move Silently but is constantly being ganked by spiders cats, and goblin assassins.  It makes it just about impossible to get to the other places in the server that I need to be.  

Others have mentioned that they can easily get about the island sneaking about.  I applaud these players who understand the mechanics and can do what I cannot.  Telling me to use invisible potions at 180 to 200 a pop, means that for every time I get on I must use anywhere between 400 to 800 in gold just to go from home to the Zig and back.  I don’t plan on questing every time I log on and I am not aware of quests that will provide such potions or gold to my PC.  So unfortunately I am limited in my playing areas due to choosing to play an outsider along with not being able to actually get around.  

Do I then request to make the server easier to sneak around or do I suck it up and work with what I have got?

PVP
Hmm, I notice many mention this but I am not sure why.  What does PVP have to do with the quality of the server?  Depending upon what kind of PC you make will in effect determine whether you will be heavily into PVP or if it is going to be a rare event.  Choosing to make a PC that will be in Lawful vs Chaos faction and vice versa will ensure more PVP than a non committal Gondite or merchant.  Of course you might end up being a target of a certain group by your being who you are, well you just ahve to deal with it.

RP/Story
I am here to have fun with friends.  I do not crave DM attention. Nor do I run in fear from it.  I enjoy making slightly odd characters and interact with others.  What fun it was to have Zebulon having arguments in the midst of making sendings down in the UD, being a faction leader with poor charisma, getting drunk and spitting everywhere.  My friendly neighborhood Loviataran, preaching whenever possible, asking people who had healed him to hit him, or trying to make it clear that as a LN cleric this religion was not evil.

Do clerics preach?  How can clerics become wand and potion merchants?  In the real world, one would get benefits of a church only by being a member.  I have seen various bards whose only bardish element is to use their magic song.  Where are the stories, poems or actual verse?  Are they only reserved for the competition for where they get a prize?  I would like to see more scrutiny by DMs of such multiclassing as the player appears not to be anything like that class.

People like secrets and it feels good to have one.  It has always been that factions get secrets and do their best to keep it.  Others feel left out when they don’t know what’s going on, but don’t want to join a particular faction for some reason.  I would think in order to create long lasting faction vs faction, vis-à-vis Spellguard vs Seekers, one cannot let either faction disappear over night.  It must be clear that there is DM support for both groups.  Of course just by making a faction today to oppose a group will not and should not get automatic support just because one wishes so.  I think some people expect automatic and quick results.  One way to make it clear is for DM to politely respond with how that faction could get results.

Now if people, PC or DM-NPC, do not react how I think they would react, do I complain that this is not realistic or do I work with what I have?

Ability to enact change
Well being actually able to change the environment is a big perk compared to the original solo quest games of NWN.  While it is understood that effort I required to build something, I think it really is unclear what that effort is?  How long must a PC clean out a ruin before it becomes a hideout?
I don’t play everyday for a few hours at a time.  If it is for the PC’s who do this and see actual server change to their efforts that is fine, as long as it is clear.  How long must a faction hang out in a place to make it “real”?

Some people play better than others, I shall do my best.
Some RP better, I shall do my best.
Some people can get a sign up when I cannot, I shall spit on that sign, ... oh wait he is stuck in the UD - scratch that.
I had pizza and salad for dinner today, yum.

[Aldrick Tanith]

After reading Howland's posts, I've come up with some good feedback.  I know it's going to sound biased due to my character, but it's not - it's biased due to my playstyle. :p  (I like to build things.)

If the point of the new server is to try and build things, I think DM's should turn their focus almost exclusively to player factions.  If new DM factions must be made, then they should be similar to the Society.

DM factions shouldn't come in with huge guns and huge support in terms of power or (seemingly) overwhelming advantage.  It's perfectly acceptable for players to, over time, aid a faction in becoming the top dog by earning it.  But I don't think any faction should come in, and automatically become a power player.

Player Factions in my opinion, are generally a good measurement of the interests of the players at the time.  Instead of new DM factions, DM NPC's joining these factions would be nice.  If the factions collapse due to IC events, then they collapse.  If they get wiped out, they get wiped out.  

Rather than viewing it as a negative, I view it as a net positive, by eliminating one power group, it opens up the door for another power group to take its place.  It creates conflict and an interesting story.

The one major complaint that I have always had, as someone who frequently plays almost exclusively with minor DM factions or player factions, is that getting things for a player faction is sometimes like pulling teeth.  I think it is because the DM's are afraid of showing favoritism to a particular player or a particular faction... but really, it drives me nuts sometimes.  I just wish it was easier to impact the game world and make desired changes a reality.

So far, I've only found two ways to do this:  be extremely persistent or find a DM who is OOCly interested in your faction and wants to follow it.  Those two things generally seem to work, but even then seeing an actual impact on the game world is still difficult!

I think this is why so many took the approach of blowing things up on EfU.  They saw direct and immediate change to the game world.  They could see their impact.  I believe if people trying to build things could more easily do such, then more people would build rather than destroy.

[Metro_Pack]

Thread is winar

Also:

Outside the world of gaming, I've accomplished some pretty remarkable things in my life, usually in the face of skilled, experienced, and disciplined opposition.

More info plz

[domare]

Comment

I will say that this server has made some steady progress in becoming a fun and interactive server.  I have seen first hand DM’s who rewarded PC’s for in-game plotting between other characters and factions.  Those rewards might have been in the way of XP, coin, NPC possessions, etc.  This has positively influenced my game play as of late, which has resulted in a renewed energy of playing my character.  So, I was very appreciative of those DM's who took the time to eavesdrop on my conversations and IG plotting and provide incentives when they deemed it appropriate.

Moreover, I would provide the following advice to increasing the quality of game play for the PC’s and DM’s alike:

1. DM possession of NPC’s and interacting with the PC community is a very important aspect that counters the traditional questing cultures.  When morale in the Watch is bad, then an occasional possession of a character that mumbles and curses about his life within the watch as he conducts his patrols might be enough for that light bulb to go off in the head of the PC that possible IG angles could be present.  Random NPC possessions also give the PC’s some idea of the personality of the NPC, as well as any potential strengths and/or weaknesses.  

2. Continue to keep an eye out for those PC’s who are getting other players involved (whether they are for team evil, against team evil, or innocent bystanders) in plots.  This increases the randomness of this server and the feelings that PC’s need to find some allies within the very dangerous city of Ymph.

3. Provide customized loot (even if it is not enchanted or magically significant) to those players who venture out into the wilderness, ruins, or Underdark for exploration or research.  This might even spark a particular interest in a hidden aspect of the server that could come to life if adequate IG play is done.  I get this idea from EfU when the deep gnome doll and journal was found in Dunwarren, which had the key in its leg.  I thought it was sad and haunting that little girl wrote that chosen are about and her father as not returned.  Perhaps something similar to this could be inserted into the server.  (If it already is and I have not come across it, then please excuse this comment).

Obviously, DM's get enjoyment from the server when PC's are putting critical thought to their goal establishment, and persistency with pursuing these goals.  I think if the DM team would continue to adhere to these three comments, it will do much to encourage players to reach outside their comfort zone to establish some interesting play for all involved.

[Wern8]

Might be off topic, but in general, I think everybody just needs to calm down more, there should not be any quarrels between players and DMs. Its kind of like the players think that the DMs are out to get them, ruin their time and vice versa, but I believe this is clearly unfounded. At the meantime, I think some of the DMs need to be less defensive and it most likely will help if there is less trolling from DMs on these kind of forum posts and threads, though I think that posts like Howland's and Dan's are quite good and acceptable!

Lastly, I feel there should be more positive criticism (even if players obviously do not know as much as DMs) instead of too much whining and also it seems to me that every criticism thread made results in some players and DMs trying to shoot down (either directly or indirectly) those who criticize, lets have less of that please. Though it should be said that most of the time EfU/EfU:A isn't as bad or horrible as some players think and some may have been exaggerated, but at the same time the players who criticize are not a bunch of lazy whiners or as bad as some might think either and some of the problems brought up are valid, and should be taken into consideration.

[Metro_Pack]

I agree with wern8 completely FWIW

[Dash]

Wern8, you summed it up well I think, even though personally I am more inclined to disagree with Oro/Icanhasfun etc.

I think players should also keep in mind that there have been all of 2, maybe 3 seriously active DMs in recent months to account for maybe 200 or so players. Shit ain't a cakewalk you know? Cut them some slack, or else pay them to do better.

On the other hand, I have sometimes felt that I was in a certain situation where I was being excluded, DMs were playing favorites etc. and it was a bit frustrating, but when I sat back and looked at from an objective point of view, maybe if it were me I would have done the same. Sometimes IC events require secrecy which may seem like favoritism. Whats the point of a secret cult of baddies if EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THEM!? Whats the point of a secret conspiracy against the government etc. if it's common knowledge? If you want to be in the know, make an effort to find out. Don't shout favoritism when something big happens and the DMs helped it out. Theyre just building story for you to play with. That info had been there all along, it wasn't impossible to discover.

On another note, I think in the end the players should keep in mind that while getting NPC possessed to personally help out your character/getting DM loot is awesome and everyone wants it, but once you start to expect it, there is a problem. Try playing just to actually -play- with other people. Sometimes sitting in the Kingsman and just having a discussion about your viewpoints, things that should be done etc. can be rewarding and fun. Find allies, build rivalries, focus more on interacting with other players instead of NPCs and DMs.

Maybe then there won't be so much concern about which player got this attention and who needs what NPC possessed etc.

Play with the players, yeah?

[Caddies]

Word!

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

No one has the entire story

No one knows everything

Yes, DM's make mistakes,

Yes, Players make mistakes.

The DM's are there to help you.

Not to smash you.

Ask for help on IRC, they will help you when they get around to it.

Don't worry, be happy, smash them enemies!

[PanamaLane]

First off, I love everyone in here even when I disagree with them. Even you Caddies! I hope none of this is taken personally by anyone. In regards to favoritism and DM interaction and so forth, I'll reiterate my previous statement. Promote some more DM's. This way more of the server actually has a chance to interact with them, to do the things that really only a DM can do, or to simply be made to feel more special. We all want our characters to feel important, at least to us if not to everyone, and a DM reward or two (whether it be in the form of an item or just an NPC possesion) goes a long, long way towards this. I understand the "play with the players" mentality. It's what we all do. But when you have a group of people who are looking at one or two PC's for leadership, to get things done that only a DM can do, and those things never happen its enormously frustrating for all the players involved. More DM's solves this.

[Cluckyx]

Promote some more DM's. .

And there's the kicker.

The server is understaffed.

yes we need more DMs

But I personally would rather wait with an understaffed server, than have underqualified and incompetent DM's brought about out of necessity. As I'm sure you know, an incompetent DM can have the opposite effect as competent DMs end up cleaning up any mess generated by his or her fail. If there were people worthy of DMing, they would have asked them by now.

 I agree with a lot of the criticisms in this thread, but I think any talking of specific and real changes to the server and the attitudes surrounding it can only happen when we have a full strength DM team,