Feedback!

[Oroborous]

I don't mean to imply that any DM did this out of spite, or maliciousness.

I think it has been done. That the DMs aren't aware of how pervasive the feeling is through the player base, not even I did until a few people thanked me for my thread (which is a far cry from the flaming I expected).

At base, I think DMs make mistakes. Players mistake DM intentions.

However, not once have I seen a real open effort to address the problems despite threads like this popping up fairly steadily since EfU:A started. I still play EfU, but I'm not wasting time e-mailing a complaint in where I don't think it'll be taken seriously by a DM-team (that well-intentioned and composed mostly of people I really enjoy interacting with) but that remains largely convinced that the problem only exists with certain players who "choose" to see a problem.
 
Even if the problems are just a matter of perception, problems are perceived and I'd like to think the DMs will actually recognize that even *that* is a problem that could use addressing.

I personally choose to log in and have fun with people I enjoy playing NWN with; including DMs and regular players. I plan to continue to do so. When things aren't fun, I plan to log out and do something that is. No big deal.

[Random_White_Guy]

The notion of you have to be great at PvP to get things done is one that concerns me greatly. Mostly because, Well, I suck at PvP but still believe I enjoy the server and move things along.

The thing is, you just have to look at problems differently, and not every "Conflict" has to end with you murdering another character. Yes, PvP death is substantial if you make it so (I try to), and it can be a great way to stoke the flames of conflict, but it should not be a Be all-end all.

The DMs are often supportive of non-PvP or Non-FD results to situations, and even some of us players love helping out.

You just have to shift your way of thinking from "That guy just made me mad! Let's kill'em!" To "That guy just made me mad. Let's crush him".

I almost like to think it is more super-villain-esque, to -not- kill the enemy, but to make their life a living hell. Sure, The Joker would have loved to splatter Batman's face all over the wall. But he didn't. There was alot of fun to be had in that story.

Another issue I want to bring up here, while not so prevalent here, but to old EFU, was Executions.

Yes, there have been jail breaks, yes there have been other cool ways to do executions, but I honestly believe an execution should be reserved for the most heinous of criminals. And even then it isn't final, but so many times I witnessed great characters crushed early by being executed after one mistake and being caught by the guards.

I've not been lucky enough to witness a trial here on EFUA, but I would honestly like to see Execution used as a severly last resort for characters, akin to a way to put away the most evil of villains, not just someone who killed one person, or comitted treason.

It really adds to the story to throw out enemies, or disfigure them and leave them aside, or trap them within city limits, or that kind of thing. To me it allows for far more intrique, far more store, and far more fun than "Well fuck. I was caught. I'm standing here going to be executed, time to think up a new character".

Some preemptive feedback, if you will. Take from it what you wish.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I've been in a situation where the DM told the player to FD me.

I was quite cross.


Then I realized.


We can all have fun regardless.

[Mort]

If It's so pervasive/ingrained, I doubt it's going to change :( . So, perhaps it's best to just change your mind on something else, chill out, try other servers and then come back if you are still interested. 90% of the angsty posters I never saw their characters in the last weeks. So it's not really feedback based on recent happenings as Dan was looking forward, it's more the usual disc that some have grown accustomed to playing.

DMs do make mistakes, plenty of things I wished had ended up differently or that I would have done differently in hindsight. Sometimes, rolls, bad judgment on the part of gauging difficulty or unexpected decisions by PCs led to consequences which were undesired. It's easy for us to sense when a player is angry, his/her character usually becomes dulled, talks/emotes less, takes a hopeless disposition or become angry quite easily. So, there is certainly a learning process that happens, but it isn't based on angsty posts, thought.

Other times, however, we dont do squat and are just looking and then the party gets stomped (for some reason) as soon as we possess something to make it taunt the PCs or anything, and then we sort-of get blame despite the only crime was simply being there and observing. Similarly, when we prevent monsters from being lured or make monsters who are within ear-shot of the battle attack the group.

The angsty rumination session that goes on behind in tells or on IRC, however, is the real problem. Never has been healthy, ever! It's not venting, it's only reinforcing your negative beliefs.

Change your clique. Talk to different people. Mix in. Avoid ruminative/negative people/talking and try not to be jealous of the positive/zen ones. That's the beauty of secret accounts as you can really start a blank page and hook up with different players than your usual clique.

If you have a problem, dont take an oppositional/defiant disposition that will turn anyone to whom that message is directed on the defensive. It really doesn't work!

[xxWhisperingWindsxx]

I wasn't going to reply to this, but I've been following it and decided to after all; as the opportunity has arisen in a thread that will hopefully be taken by the DM staff in the manner that I perceive it was meant ... I'll go ahead and give this a go. It's apt to be long-winded, so I'll ask for pardons now.
 
As I'm reading through this I find myself agreeing with Lets Play, Oro, ICan, and Gwydion. Not all of it, but a majority of it. And I've talked to a few others that feel that way as well.
 
I'm one of the "backchannels and PMs in IRC" people when I have gripe, complaint, or am just generally pissy. I usually keep it there for a variety of reasons which vary from situation to situation.
 
Why don't people bring it out in the open? True or not, it's because there's a feeling of "nothing's going to change so why bother" or a fear of some sort of reprisal from both players and DM's. And to be honest, it has at times been true.
 
 
As I look at the server now, I'm reminded of when the Montezzi faction was at it's peak. People look back at that time of the server with a certain nostalgia now, but at the time the frustration level was running quite high. For some there was very much a feeling that your options were to jump on the band wagon, get PvP'd, or just not interact with a chunk of the server (therefore missing out on the action/plots and the DM love). I see the same cycle happening yet again here.
 
For me personally ... I don't enjoy that type of "in your face" gaming as a constant way of playing. I'm not all that mechanically adept at this game, so I choose to avoid the situations. That means I miss out on a lot of what's going on, or play with the "fear factor" when I do choose to skirt the edges of it.  But that is they way -I- choose to play.  But I digress.
 
It is also true, no matter how much anyone wants to deny it, that there are cliques and favorites here. It's human nature, people flock together. It would be that way no matter where you go. Where it becomes an issue is when it starts too look blatantly obvious. When it starts to feel like you have to be part of the "in crowd" to accomplish anything at all, no matter how small, it's very discouraging.
 
Let me give an example of what I mean ...
 
You have a giganto-battle that involves a majority of the people logged in against some big hairy army/beast/whatever that's pretty central to a major plot. By the skin of their teeth the PC's manage to win. Now, the PC's involved are there for all sorts of reasons. They heard the warning call, they were ordered there, they stumbled on the battle, etc. Mr. Big Bad Hero (or Heros) are given the loot to distribute. Well, what will end up happening is that some get the goodies and some don't. Those that don't inevitably are the ones that either stumbled onto the battle or came because they heard the call. They end up walking away feeling like "well wtf did I bother with that for?" (in this specific example, a DM plopping goodies in inventory would even up things, though that would be very work intensive)
 
So the division of "haves" and "have-nots" increases. Eventually those that feel like they're in the "have-not" category will give up entirely. Why continue to beat your head against a brick wall.
 
 
Whether or not these things are strictly true is completely irrelavent. The fact remains that it is what players are perceiving as happening or seeing happening, therefore it does become it's own truth.
 
So ... all that being said ... what does it mean for the DM's and players?
 
For the players ... it means stepping out of our comfort zone sometimes. For the more dynamic players it means sometimes watching out for the less dynamic players. Sometimes it means bending when you don't want to or maybe not completely IC to do so.
 
For the DM's ... I truly hope you hear what is trying to be said in this thread and not take it as a personal assault. As the "leaders" of this community, a certain amount of work and responsibility falls to your shoulders, fairly or unfairly. Choosing to dismiss the problem because you may not see it, or telling us to find another server doesn't help. It only magnifies the problem. So, sometimes it may mean looking out for that shy, boring, non-involved player/PC. Sometimes it will mean kicking Mr. Big Bad in the chomps a bit. Sometimes it does mean playing baby-sitter when all you really want to do is give them a pacifier and tell them to STFU. I don't envy the DM's the job they have before them. It's hard and it's time consuming. And a lot of times it's a very thankless job. But, it is what it is ... and as our "leaders" we look to you for many things. That is the role you have taken.
 
 
I'm not saying this should be a "Happy Mary Sunshine" server where everything is always fair and equal. This is a hard server in a hard world. We choose to play here because overall we enjoy the game, the setting, and the community that is unique to this place.
 
What I am saying, is that when things like this come up, and there's a handful of people that are saying the same thing ... it does need to be looked at and addressed. It wouldn't come up if there weren't at least some truth behind it.

[lovethesuit]

Frankly, I want a Happy Mary Sunshine server. Let's work on that, okay? Geez.

[efuincarnate]

Just to give an opposeing viewpoint, I have had a pc back here now for a few weeks, maybe a month at Christamss. He has literally no gold. He has no items, save what he is wearing, and those are mundane for the most part. He is level 4again....for the 5th or sixth time, since I started him. The DM's have had to bail me out of a few diffrent buggy places I got myself into due to my own ignorance of the new map/game world. (Stuck in the DM area being one). All this, and he is still one of the best times I have had playing a character..so items/gold/levles do not seem to matter unless you let them.
-To keep with the OP of this thread, there are alot of areas that need cleaning up, transitions to no where, NPC's that seem crucial that do nothing as of yet, but I am sure that will come in time.
-as  a whole, I am finding this setting far more engrossing then EFU, and that is a 180 from where I was when we made the switch.
-Only suggestion I can make is try and find more DM's, of quality which you already have. A tall order to be sure. Espeacially in late night PST and Aussie TZ's but that has been said already.

[AKMatt]

The point Oro brought up about overpowering spice is something I'd like to bring up as well.  Recently, the majority of spice I've encountered has tended to be ramping up the difficulty of combat and throwing in new bad guys to shout menacing things, which is cool, but I also used to see a lot more spice that involved diplomacy, turned the quest around (monsters hire you to do something else), and that sort of thing, which I haven't seen much of lately (then again, the one time this came up for me recently, I ruined it by going into a blood rage and charging).  I always thought it was cool when the monsters paid you off to go somewhere else.  I can even remember one situation where we were hired as bodyguards to protect some goblins from a "questing group" of NPCs that was coming in to raid their lair.

As for the rewarding of PvP, I do not think I have seen characters rewarded for wiping out factions, or mercilessly targeting other PCs for FD and looting.  I have frequently seen custom loot disappear into thin air off the subdued or dead PCs in what I would assume is a DM effort to maintain some semblance of balance.  Usually, good is as much to blame for its own demise as evil is.  The prominent, successful evil characters who have PvPed or FDed seldom hunt out enemies to kill.  Usually, when they FD, it is a result of being challenged or ambushed and emerging successful.  The cases I have seen where they hunted down and killed people were frequently retribution for some action taken specifically against them.  Granted, there are many things the evil PCs are doing to draw animosity from the good PCs (something evil should be doing, in my opinion), but it is unfair to lay the blame for prevalent PVP on them alone.

[DangerousDan]

I appreaciate folks being candid, and although we can't please everyone, we'll most certainly keep your critiques in mind. Thanks for not getting all petty and accusational.

[Caddies]

As is ALWAYS the case, most of the critique from people in this thread ultimately stems from sheer lack of player perspective of how things are on an overall level.

Really, unless you're complaining about a specific incident that your PC was involved in, you really don't have the information available to complain about anything in general, especially not the the state of all-encompassing matters which span the entire server, such as a perceived preponderance to reward a certain style of play for example.

You log on for a few hours everyday on a server that runs 24/7, and see events from only the narrowest of windows (what your PC sees) on a server where dozens of PCs are interacting with both the virtual world and other PCs ceaselessly.

You do not know the stats of other PCs, you do not know the agenda of other PCs, you do not know what other PCs have done or are in the process of doing, you do not know whats in other PC inventories, you do not know which PCs have secret deals with other PCs, you do not know about a million things you know when you are a DM. You basically know jack shit, really.

Coming back as a player now from being a DM, I can honestly say that this is the real problem. Whereas I used to be filled in with the pure facts concerning every little event or incident that might warrant complaining from PCs (and 95% of the time it was unwarranted lol, as with most things probably in this thread), to now only having a small level of overall information available, I realise how ultimately stupid it would be for me to make dissertations about things like server cultures, the dominance of certain PCs/groups, etc.

And so, I'd just encourage everyone to make an interesting PC they enjoy playing, with a clear agenda, and pursue it IG as best they are able, through the thick and the thin. Victim syndrome isn't a fun development for anybody, especially not you.

[Jayde Moon]

As always, if you aren't Caddies, you have no clue what you're talking about ;)

[xxWhisperingWindsxx]

Whether or not these things are strictly true is completely irrelavent. The fact remains that it is what players are perceiving as happening or seeing happening, therefore it does become it's own truth.

I'll re-state this point.  
 
You're correct Caddies that players don't see everything that the DM staff sees.  However, as with the case with any player, we can only go by what we see when we are logged in.  
 
No, players are not all-knowing, nor do they have the information available to them that the DM staff does.  That does not minimize how they feel or what they perceive.  Patting someone on the head and saying "There, there .. you don't know everything that's going on" doesn't help anything.  All it does is make players feel more frustrated and more unheard.
 
It is irrelevant if what they are seeing or feeling is technically true.  It is their truth and it is the place from which they are coming from.  That's what they are seeing and feeling when they log in to play.  
 
 
And just as a side note ... if someone builds what they see is an interesting PC and still cannot get involved no matter how hard they try ... does not mean it's an uninteresting PC or that they're playing a victim when they voice their frustration.  There is a multitude of reasons why it could be happening.

[9lives]

I appreaciate folks being candid, and although we can't please everyone, we'll most certainly keep your critiques in mind. Thanks for not getting all petty and accusational.

Awesome troll.

[DangerousDan]

Was not trolling!

[9lives]

Mum's the word.