Feedback!

[Ommadawn]

I would like to see more general news/rumors posts, for one. I play in the off peak times and don't hear or see a lot of the plotty stuff that happens. Take the Order for example. I had (still have) no idea who they are, or even when they appeared. This is after meeting two of them, mind you.

More posts of common knowledge and rumors make the server seem more alive to me and help me fill in the blanks do I don't feel totally ignorant when I log in.

Something else I hope for would be more DM spice/quests/attention in non US prime time zones. It doesn't have to be multi-hour events or quests. A little spice, a random possession, a tiny non-important event can blow me away and make my week. Truly.

[DangerousDan]

I would like to see more general news/rumors posts, for one. I play in the off peak times and don't hear or see a lot of the plotty stuff that happens. Take the Order for example. I had (still have) no idea who they are, or even when they appeared. This is after meeting two of them, mind you.

This is pretty much universal to the server, just FYI!

[Ommadawn]

That was just an example. >_>

[I can has fun?]

This is going to be TL:DR.

Like Oro, I'm pretty sure that what I have to say won't go down easy. I actually started playing somewhere else several weeks ago and I'm having fun with that, but since you asked, here's my answer.

First, I just want to point something out. Considering how often my threads get locked, this is about as candid as I'm ever going to get on these forums. Believe me, I have more to say than just this. However, I do take great amusment from the fact that there is talk of a "group that only complains in backchannels and PMs through IRC," as if that is some kind of an unexpected development.

Come on! Any time someone brings up these issues in the forums the discussion gets locked. You just banned Kotenku for making an off-color metaphor! What the hell was that all about? What do you expect after that, open and honest discussion? What are you going to do to me after I post this, delete my account? Come to my house?

Lighten up, people. Nowhere else do discussion threads get locked with such lightning zeal. For as much as I hear about this famous leather skin, I don't see much evidence of it.

 Anyway, enough about that. I lost my heart for EfU a few months ago and here are the honest and sincere reasons why.

1. A Culture of Pwn - This is my number one gripe with this place. It's all about kicking ass and being the biggest, baddest, meanest motherfucker around. There is no room for nuance, subtlety, or complexity. The prevailing emotions among characters are always some combination of fear, anger, and ennui. There are never, ever any happy endings. In the final analysis, the ultimate arbiter of an EfU character's worth is their ability to win in PvP.

That policy has not gone without some side effects. Plots collapse when the principal character gets axed from the script for what usually seem like unrelated and unimportant reasons. Players quit the server after repeatedly encountering failures which are not of their own making. Hearty role-play gets passed over in favor of grinding quests, because after all, no one ever pwned anybody by just sitting around talking, amirite?

The accumulation of all of these things has turned EfU:A into what amounts to a glorfied arena server where role-play happens to be mandatory, but otherwise has no effect on the gameworld. While it may seem like I am taking issue with the playerbase, I am not. I lay this issue directly at the feet of the DMs, because that which gets rewarded gets repeated.

I would like to take this moment to point out that there is an entire universe of dramatic possibility beyond the standard EfU fare, that is to say: angry men with swords expressing their faint disapproval of absolutely everything and everyone around them, and occasionally beating the shit out of anyone who doesn't like it.

2. The "Are You Kidding Me" Factor - Outside the world of gaming, I've accomplished some pretty remarkable things in my life, usually in the face of skilled, experienced, and disciplined opposition. There is, however, nothing I have ever enountered in my real-world travels that compares to to the extreme eye-gouging impossibility of getting an EfU NPC to cooperate with one of my characters for any reason whatsoever.

Forgive me for saying this so bluntly, but it almost seems like you guys don't know when to stop. It's not enough for you to have the harshest death penalties on the internet, the highest raw difficulty level of any game outside of Battletoads, and a setting filled with hopeless obstacles. Most people would have drawn the line there, but no.

Once a player finally gets a DM's attention for something, manages to persuade them that their great idea isn't anything at all like the thousand other great ideas they've heard from every other player making constant demands on their time, then it becomes a game of "how high can I make this hurdle." And that was back in the days when there were plenty of DMs to pester.

On this issue, I'm speaking less on my own behalf and more for the benefit of other players, several of whom are only looking at EfU in their rear-view mirror. Myself, I quit trying to get anything from DMs a long time ago, because the mere fact of wanting something from a DM is usually what leads to my character's doom. See what Oroborous said.

3. Fairness and Balance - This ties in to the PvP issue, but it deserves its own special section.

There are characters on this server who get to do whatever they want. They are the stars of the show. There is no need to name them, everyone knows exactly who they are. Please notice that I said "characters," not "players." I am not accusing any DM of playing favorites. There have been several characters like this, and the roles generally rotate around a group of deserving players.

My question is this: why is it that for the last year, these characters are always evil, always some kind of fighter multiclass, and are invariably the ones who end up with the Unholy Grail of WTFPwn? Okay, I know, it's because they won it fair and square in PvP, right. See point 1.

If we know ahead of time that certain types of characters are going to always prevail in certain types of encounters, what's wrong with giving a leg up to the other PC types? Why is there this taboo against bestowing power to good-aligned PCs? Wouldn't it be nice to see some unpopular, gangly old geezer with a heart of gold save the day, just once? In other words, why's it got to be so damn miserable all the time, huh?

It seems like whenever the DMs are tipping the scales, the scales favor evil. And not just evil, but the kind of evil that ruins plots, decimates other factions, kills off important NPCs, and generally lives a good life at the expense of everyone else. There is never any mitigating factor, no opposing force, no clash of opposites, just a boot stomping on a human face, forever.

Does anyone remember Barrister Fawkes? I can remember being told by a DM that Barrister Fawkes was given such incredible power, basically an NPC's job, because he went out of his way to involve other people in whatever he was doing. Sure enough, several of my PCs interacted with Fawkes on a variety of levels, and all of them were fun. He was like a junior DM. In his success, he helped others succeed.

That philosophy is gone. In its place we have a system where success only comes at the expense of others. There is no reward for positive achievement, material or otherwise. The only way to get anything is to take it from someone else. Not even real life is that god-awful. That's just not a game I enjoy playing.

Conclusion

Shit man, you must really hate this place, right? Well no, not actually. I can still remember the good old days, and that's what keeps me coming back. When it was at its best, EfU was the best. But that was a long, long time ago, and I've long since reconciled myself to the idea that those days aren't coming back around again.

But I still hold out hope. EfU was great, and can be great again, if only it will return to its roots. Its roots lay in the philosophy that the best players are the ones who make things fun for other players, that winning in PvP isn't everything, that the best characters can have the weakest character sheets, and that sometimes those people can be heroes, too.

[pyth]

My only real complaint is the current factions don't intrest me much. They all have the same general feel of merc companies, swords for hire ect.

I just don't see the deep intrigue and mystery of things like we had in the UD, which is what made them interesting for me.

Factions like the SG, or the Scociety were unique feeling, and had a very interesting and different flavor to them.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I find myself agreeing with I can Has fun.

But yes, DM's DO PLAY FAVORITES. If the player is awesome, they tend to get more attention.

[Yalta]

My general feedback would be that i am happy with how things are. Recent events have made things more interesting imo. Liked Dan's event v.much especially the end of it and i like what i have seen so far of the new faction.
 
I certainly feel i am getting a decent share of DM time etc.
 
Some feedback would be a request to link in the old Sanctuary with the new, the more links to our servers past the better e.g is the machine linked to the Myathallar etc.
 
I do think some really nice rewards following spice would be good now and again as well, rather than just more potions etc. By nice i mean a decent weapon / armour / items. Shallow i know but, hey everyone likes interesting (though not necessarily powerful) loot!
 
And as a side note i am finding when i go online there are loads of folks around...

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Heck, I wouldn't mind DM loot if it had my name on it. Even if it did nothing.

[Sternhund]

I'd just like to point out that we didn't ban Kotenku. He wrote that into his post as a 4chan allusion.

On the topic of favorites. We enjoy roleplaying with characters and players who are interesting, just as you do. There are some characters who I find incredibly boring, despite how I respect the player, so I invest my time elsewhere. I can has fun said that good behavior goes rewarded. Well, I notice that offering rewards to players who perform exceptional roleplaying involving others often acts as a model for other players. I don't believe we do this to a level in which it's obnoxious, but we do offer more attention to those who are interesting and actively go out of their way to involve others, and I am extremely generous in helping characters who involve players that have not been in plots before.

[Nihm]

I would like to take this moment to point out that there is an entire universe of dramatic possibility beyond the standard EfU fare, that is to say: angry men with swords expressing their faint disapproval of absolutely everything and everyone around them, and occasionally beating the shit out of anyone who doesn't like it.

The second type is far more prevalent : those who toady up to the angry men with swords and choose to have their characters believe the angry men when they deny slaughtering all the children in front of everybody.  The second type is what allows the first type to thrive.  "Well, he has too many consumables so I'm just going to suck up like the other 90%, I realy don't want to find a gank squad waiting for me when I come out of the next quest I do."
 
If you lay player cowardice and apathy at the feet of the Dms, you are asking for high powered npcs that will oppose the angry men with swords for you, or maybe for having them caught in a sudden storm and fried in their Full-Plate-That-Nobody-Else-Has.  That isn't fair either.
 
As for the spice, I agree that it's very, very hard.  It always has been.  Difficult spice is a staple of this server.  Some find it fun, some find it frustrating.  Almost no one will turn down a DM quest or leave when spice begins, because deep down most people want the entertainment.  They want to see things suddenly become a serious struggle for survival, and they want to weather a difficult event.

[Mort]

Merry christmas!

[Gwydion]

I think it's very cool for the DMs to listen to this feedback.

One thing that might really improve the server is for the DMs to increase their encouragement, support, and guidance of players or factions that oppose the established powers.  Not just to make it a giant and endless cycle of "King of the Mountain", but for the story itself.  I know they already do these things, but there seems to be a need for more of it based on the comments of many here.

It is a fact that there are players with an overwhelming mastery of the mechanics, and the time to play many, many hours a day.  If these people get significant DM support, they are nearly invincible forces.  That's ok, as long as there is something that can eventually, somehow knock them down or out.  And must everyone die?  Wouldn't it be cool to see a "has been" come back and do something different?  A gang leader become a priest of Helm?  A fallen paladin working in a seedy bar?  These things don't happen when players are executed EVERY TIME they are defeated.  I'd like to see DMs make some of these characters NPCs.  

I also think NPCs can play a big role in keeping the playing field level enough to keep the story going.  Eumond Hararamous says to his PC friend that has been struggling to combat the evil of a secret cult of Bane....."Priest of Ilmater, here is the Crucifix of Anuirin.  An ancient relic of the Triad.  If you place it upon your brow, you will be invincible and able to slay the mightiest of enemies, but it's power will drain your mortal shell and end your time on this plane."

That makes for a hawt storyline I think.  Of course the guy has to earn it, but that would be pretty neat, yet ultimately fair.  

And here's the biggest truth I've seen.  It's all about equilibrium.  That's what made the old setting rock.  Ebb and flow.  Wasn't so much good vs. evil or law vs. chaos, but faction vs. faction.  

But somehow, the best players seem to do the best job playing evil characters and in evil factions.  For all of you that say its cyclical, that Team Good rules sometimes, then Team Evil, I challenge you to name how many good aligned characters dominated and ultimately completely controlled the server, vs. the evil ones.

The Montezzi faction was so awesome, yet so dominant that it completely choked off potential enemies even before they were powerful enough to challenge them.  That destroys equilibrium, and makes for "if you can't beat them, join them."  This in turn requires the DMs to help those trying to oppose the juggernauts of the server to make for a better story in my opinion.

Lastly, it seems its far more interesting for the DMs to interact with, and help out the evil characters and factions.  This means that they have to consciously make an attempt to improve the opponents of the evils, in order to attract PCs to that faction in order to promote a more interesting plot.  The New Dunwarren and Greycloaks are a good example of that.  Things like that need some serious DM help, instead of getting a cloak with Light spell 5/day and say, "go get 'em, Poindexter!"

This may also take some of the excellent players on this server to take up the oderous mantle of RPing some of these types of characters.  I think that really made the old setting rock when there was a badass Seeker duking it out with a powerful Spellguard Agent, or a tough Watchman going up against a thug from Lower - you get the point.

Hopefully this is a helpful contribution, and excuse the length of my thoughts here.

Merry Christmas Mort!

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

DM's will help people who make an influence. They won't help the pansy who just quest spams. Also, you know, ASKING for a DM possession for Eumond to help you combat the cult of bane might give some results. NPC's are people two, and they care what happens to this settlement. So ASKING them for HELP might come to something.

Efforts= results

Sitting around waiting for help= nothing.

[Howlando]

I think there's plenty of very legitimate criticism in this thread that I hope to see addressed. It's no secret that right after EFU:A began a whole bunch of our most active DMs (including myself) disappeared into thin air. We all had reasons for it that superseded DM responsibilities. This combined with such factors as: our server no longer being listed on gamespy, super long up-times (an unfortunate down-side of our super stable new server), DMs basically dropping the ball entirely in terms of factions, etc. definitely harmed the server. This is all being fixed.

I have been IG some for the past few couple days, and although I'm headed on an 11 day boat trip, hope to be around a bit more when I come back. Several other of our DMs have finished with exams and I expect to see improved activity.

Some of the criticism expressed in this thread I do not find myself agreeing with. People may express it if they wish, no one is getting banned (please ignore Kotenku's self troll), and as always serious issues should be directed to escapefromunderdark@gmail.com

I find myself with the urge to defend this project's philosophy, to argue that we do not encourage a simple "culture of pwn," that we do (when active) help players to accomplish fun things, and that we do try to keep things fair and balanced and do not tilt towards one particular alignment or another.

I don't want to invest the time though, so players can choose to believe what they will. Play or do not play, EFUA will remain and continue to try to provide meaningful gaming entertainment to those who choose to participate.

[Howlando]

One more thing. The argument, advanced occasionally since Day One of EFU, that PvP was the only way to accomplish something meaningful in our environment has always bothered me. It has bothered me because I have the perspective of someone who sees all the things that players accomplish and how often no PvP is involved at all. Really, the best way to accomplish things has generally been just whoever can bring more PCs to their side/involve more players - but, there is some truth that at times towards the end days of EFU PvP was more prominent.

One of the very specific changes we wanted to make with EFU:A was focus on this idea that the best rewards would go to those who would build, rather than destroy. As an example, in EFU PCs loved to bomb and burn down buildings. We prided ourselves in being responsive to PC actions, and generally would go to remarkable efforts to ensure that the module was always updated with these piles of rubble and so on, and I think some players got the idea that bombing/burning/destroying was a pretty good thing to do.

Regardless, in EFUA we wanted - and want - to particularly promote the idea that characters that build neat stuff (factions, rituals, ceremonies, whatever) will get extra special attention from us. This is, as before, independent of alignment.

Please understand, this is not a call for more DM messages requesting supervision for crafting-related things (we have a thread for that), but rather - doing stuff that is productive and interesting and makes us want to watch you, rather than feeling obligated to.

So yes, that is our intent. "Building" rather than destroying.

Anyway, when I get back I look forward to DM'ing casually. I will log in every once in a while, usually advertise my DM quests publicly, and enjoy making loot for characters I like. I hope there will be plenty of sweet characters around when I do, I expect there will be.