Increase level cap on a few 3-7 quests?

[Brimstone Sermon]

I'm not bringing this up to suggest people have an easy way to crush to  9, the XP nerf that hits PCs at level 8 should forestall that anyway. At 2-6  or 3-7 you have a great selection of quests to do with a range of  challenges. Especially since so many new ones were added to that range. As soon as you hit 8, you're down to quests that tend to be  long, need an optimal team to make any profit or are restricted on how many times you can do them or what factions can take them. Either you powerquest a few that you can do, or the character slowly runs out of supplies without a way to replenish them. There are few casual quests in the lower risk/lower but reliable reward area to let you recover from events/PVP/spice.

Even if you don't manage to reach 8 on a character due to a run of bad luck or just not questing much, there's a knock-on effect. If you're in a faction with >L7 characters, your choices in questing tend to end up being really limited if you want to do stuff as a team. There's only really one quest where you can pick up a generic team or all your allies and do it in 1/2 an hour without the scaling leaving you worse off than when you went in.  I believe it would make EfU more entertaining if a few quests that are perhaps harder to reach or unpopular got jumped up from 3-7 to 3-8 to give some more variety and an incentive to do them. It could be set with little or no XP for a L8 so that you have to do the big-ticket quests for 9 still. THat last thing that'd make sense is to have people easily reaching 9 and getting bored.

I'm not playing a L8 or up PC yet, but I'm still not a fan of grinding the same quests over again to avoid leaving faction members or IC allies out. It means you end up seeing less of the server's cool areas because you always hit the same challenge. Epic quests are fun, but when you're limited in time, shorter quests are where its at to get some plotting, quests and RP in before you have to go.

[Jagged]

Agreed.  I find level 8 to be the "boring level" sometimes.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

Excavation Site in Old Stones could definitely need an increased level cap.  It's a fairly vicious quest for a 3-7.  In comparison, Harpies is a 3-7 quest and it's maybe 1/5 of the difficulty of this quest.

[Valo56]

On a related note, I find the goblin/granary quest to be far too easy for a 2-6 quest, whereas the wolves and kobolds quests are significantly harder, despite being 2-5. Making the former 2-5 and the latter two 2-6 would see more people of moderately high level getting outside town more often, rather than just doing the same three quests (granary, well, Muskroot's) in town all the time, as I often notice. Not to mention it'd be more fitting, in my opinion.

[LikeABawse]

I like the current level caps.  Moving on from lvl 8 to 9 is an accomplish that should require more than just grabbing a quest group and wiping out quests, even with diminished returns.  By that level especially, you should be less focused on just grinding up quests and more on accomplishing other goals and expanding your influence.

That the ones with higher caps require more planning and thought to finish means that your character is forced to be more of a mover and shaker (or follower) and less likely that they are someone who just happens into random quest group going to crush X.

Finally, most of these quests are already fairly easily done when you are at the higher end levels for the quest.  Allowing even higher levels would just turn them into nearly riskless grabs for what supplies they offer.

[Jayde Moon]

I like the current level caps. Moving on from lvl 8 to 9 is an accomplish that should require more than just grabbing a quest group and wiping out quests, even with diminished returns. By that level especially, you should be less focused on just grinding up quests and more on accomplishing other goals and expanding your influence.

That the ones with higher caps require more planning and thought to finish means that your character is forced to be more of a mover and shaker (or follower) and less likely that they are someone who just happens into random quest group going to crush X.

Finally, most of these quests are already fairly easily done when you are at the higher end levels for the quest. Allowing even higher levels would just turn them into nearly riskless grabs for what supplies they offer.

[Kinslayer988]

In my own opinion,
Nobody above level 8 should be grinding it out, yet many people believe it is a requirement if you want to have supplies or gear to survive.

[Brimstone Sermon]

Moving on from lvl 8 to 9 is an accomplish that should require more than just grabbing a quest group and wiping out quests.

I agree with that, which is why the returns on XP should be negligible for a L8 on these. If you want L9 you have to be working for it. As others noticed, if you manage to hit 8 without being propped up by DM reward or trading you end up grinding not for L9 but to merely stay afloat. I thought 8 was meant to be a soft cap on leveling up and one most PCs could reach (thus rogue perk at 8, barb rage and bardsong bonuses at 8 etc), not a cap on getting supplies back.

Even on a more political based PC, stuff like bribes, pay, spice, invasions and PVP will dent your supplies or cash on a regular basis and you need to grind 'em back up. We can't all play merchants, muggers or leaders. Whenever I get a PC that's managed 8, I've invariably ended up playing an alt purely to go and do low level quests for a bit of variety. I actually quit one PC because I was bored of losing supplies to spice and doing the same stuff to get them back each week. The issue wasn't the challenge of spice so much as the consequences, in that I needed to go crush or my character would die in any PVP or event. Didn't have the time for that.

Additionally when the only quests you can do at 8+ are hardcore ones needing planning, it drives a huge wedge between powergaming factions and others. For the average PC, levelling up from 6-8 subjects you to diminishing returns as the risk of questing without an optimal team (TPK) isn't mostly justified, especially if you're low on resources. For a powergaming team you just go and hit the challenging stuff because you can. It's not only planning, Jayde. It's whether you can even ICly join up with suitable PCs as you're not going to go at those things without a good buffbot, a tanky PC etc. On the other hand, there are a lot more 2-6 and 3-7 quests lately, with several of the older ones bumped up a level on the maximum.

It's an easier suggestion to the DMs to balance existing quests with more risk to allow a L8 in than to ask for a bunch of new ones.  Easier stuff won't and shouldn't let everyone be a L9 in 2 weeks like the old days. It will however cut down on PC burnout from feeling like you're on a treadmill if you want to ever have potions to fight with or money to plot with. I can't be the only player who feels like it should be OK to play more casually and that higher levels shouldn't be limited to those with an inclination and time to do hardcore quests or crowd-pleaser RP to stay there. L9-11 sure, but 8 isn't overpowering or really hard to reach, and it gives you stuff like 2nd attacks and +1 attribute that allow you to challenge the tough things. It's hard to stay motivated at though. Otherwise, EfU risks ending up with the same few players able to be kind of a big deal, and the rest on the sidelines when it comes to events/fights.

Finally, questing can be an end in itself. It's a lot of fun to go and beat an entertaining quest, and being able to do it means people will stay on their main characters, not log out of boredom. They'll be available more for rivalries, plotting etc by dint of being logged in. I'd rather have something to do than stand idling in the square or fight intermininable duels to pass time until I can pursue a plot.

[athousandyearsofpain]

There is a huge difference between level 7 and level 8 for most classes.
Melee-based builds usually get +1 damage and +2 ab. (Feat if you're a fighter)
Rogues, Clerics, Bards, Druids all get their second attack.
Wizards, Sorcerers and Clerics -USUALLY- get two extra level 4 spells and can now really start beasting it out in PvP.

[Brimstone Sermon]

I'd argue  6->7 is a greater difference for questing.
- Fighter/X: Second attack
- Rogue Multiclass: Uncanny Dodge, 2d6 sneak .
- Bard Multiclass: +1 dmg, more song effects;
- 1 or 2 tumble AC for Tumblers, depending on whether it's a class skill.
- Access to L4 spells (L3 for Bard) in the first place to start "beasting it out" unless you play a sorcerer.

The power goes up at L8 yes, but 7's where you get more new abilities that change the way a PC can fight vs mobs, which is what's relevant to quests. Uncanny Dodge or access to Improved Invis improve your chances far more than +1 attribute and AB on top of that.

PvP's irrelevant to this anyway, as the point isn't that it's hard to reach L8 to have those abilities in PvP. The XP drop and lack of quests only bites once a PC's already got there. The point is that it is hard to maintain a PC at L8 without suddenly shifting into either a powergamer, merchant, mugger or do-nothing for OOC reasons of "Can't find a way to quest supplies or gold for my plots". The 'level cap' at 8 isn't causing most PCs to end up at that level and go no further because they won't earn as much XP even if they can earn supplies. It's causing players to get bored at that level because your quest options are suddenly restricted. You need to have a squad of allies on not just for plots, but merely to quest a bit. Said allies are then locked into the long quests too.

See what others have said about boredom, there. The level cap's a good idea as a counter to grinding, but there were a lot more 3-8s and shorter/easier 4-9s about when it was brought in for EFU:A. Longest Night, Tower of Mercy not being 10 times only, Vrazdn etc. 8 didn't feel restrictive. I don't think it's a coincidence that crafting PCs tend to stick around quite a while. Being able to convert spare XP into the resources you want does bypass the supplies issue, and the alchemy/herbal systems remain entertaining and potentially profitable.

Clearly quest scaling can handle jumps in power considering L3s and L7s can do the same quests. 3-8 or 4-8 quests would fill the gap nicely between "Regular" and "Crushbot" level ranges, for PCs that aren't aiming to grind or plot to 9 but want to sit at L8 using quests to earn the supplies they burn in RP and conflict.  Balancing them deliberately with higher level parties in mind would stop them being too easy. I thought this would be a simple way to get some mileage out of under-played, shorter quests by buffing up the difficulty if needed while also making them more accessible. For example, the shorter Flayer quest is pretty tough compared to its payout now due to changes boosting most of the mobs but especially the boss. It's also very rarely done and not limited by faction. That would go well as a 3-8.

[athousandyearsofpain]

If PvP is irrelevant why do you need an easy way to get potions?
Doing the harder, and more risky quests will get you rewarded too.
These potions you pick up from the no-risk quests will most likely be used PvPing others or going on DM Quests. If you have the balls to PvP and go on DM Quests you should have the balls to do the more risky scripted quests too.

[GoblinBones]

Disagree. Go try some harder quests.

[Brimstone Sermon]

If PvP is irrelevant why do you need an easy way to get potions?

What I was explaining was that PVP is irrelevant to how much more powerful L8 is than 7 with regards to quest balance, because quests are a very different combat situation for a PC. A relatively easy, low reward quest or two is desirable as a way to recover when said risky quest, PVP or DM  quest drains you so low on supplies that you can't follow up with  another because it'd be suicide. If risks didn't occasionally kick the crap out of your PC and cause that, they wouldn't be called "risks".

This isn't about "balls", and macho isn't an argument. It's about the time you're willing to put in to get anywhere after a certain point. Whereas you can log on a L5-6 PC for 45 min and be damn near guaranteed a chance to do a quest if you want to, if you reach 8 the vast majority of choices take much longer than that excluding time to round up a team. It's about burning out on a PC because you have to choose between plots or action as you need the same PCs on for both, or because you don't want to go spent 2 hours on the same quest.

My character isn't even near 8 yet, and I have done all but a couple of the high level quests on previous PCs, or I'd be in no position to comment. You're on a hiding to nothing if your PC reaches 8 by surviving and isn't inclined to hit the big deal stuff. Not everyone wants to play this game the way you might. Sure, the big rewards should take decication or risk, but merely getting by should not.

Stuff in the 3-8 range wouldn't and shouldn't all be a cakewalk like Granary. But what they could be is a series of shorter quests you can do in 30 min. Short and challenging are not mutually exclusive.

tl;dr:

• I reckon that making some underdone quests HARDER and upping the cap is a Good Thing.
• This is because high level quests are invariably longer than lower level ones and it can be hard to organise a team due to OOC time constraints.
• If DMs want to make some short 3-8 and 4-9 quests of reasonable difficulty, that'd be cool too, but this way struck me as easier.
• Short does not equal easy, long does not equal hard.

EDIT:
Akke, please read my posts through fully. You are missing the point. There is no reason that quests cannot be balanced to a decent difficulty and reward while being shorter. Purple Mines is deliberately rather short, easy and well rewarded with only one sort of loot, for a reason. Iron Nails was not a particularly long quest but it was a killer.

Oh, also faction wages these days are more a nice bonus than a means to subside on. It'll take you about 2 hours to get a basic potion like Grace, and unlike the old days you can't use the wage as money directly, so you're back round to being a merchant again if you need cash.

@Rapiers
Random areas and bounties are so hit and miss that I haven't seen any in the entire time I've played this PC. The reason quests are good is that they are reliable and people want to join up. The new stuff's icing on the cake, but if it ain't broke, why fix it?

[athousandyearsofpain]

If its merely getting by at high levels your after, interact with other PCs and join a faction. The associations will give enough to get by for those that don't want to try anything dangerous.

[A Case Of Rapiers]

There's actually ways now to get supplies that don't require optimized quest teams. They're admittedly hit or miss, but when you hit you can hit very big. Leaving town to wander about, without simply shuffling to and from a QA, can pay very nice dividends and is also potentially far more fun since you don't know what you're going to find.