PVP And why it's the only thing that matters

[SkillFocuspwn]

I really think things like this aren't a complaint because they don't like the PvP on EfU, but a complaint because they're not winning. You can very, very, very easily never get involved in PvP and if you don't like it, just don't do it!

That being said, there is a level of EfU open to people who take risks; and this isn't just about conflict but about doing DM quests, exploring the server and doing things because your character would even if it's not a good idea, and the reason these things are rewarded is because EfU is at its heart a game based upon risk; it's made to be a challenge, it's made to push you and it's never advertised itself as anything but that, from the death system to the impossibility of travelling around alone!

So if you don't like the heat, get out of the fire. It's really very simple and I don't mean it rudely; EfU is like gambling, it's like life, it's not a game with guaranteed outcome. If you want a definite win, if you don't want the possibility of losing everything, then play WoW or Dragon Age or something else!

Finally, avoiding Druid ganks is the easiest thing in the world; don't be a Necromancer.

[Valo56]

Not playing a necromancer is indeed a good way to avoid Druidic gank squads. :P

[Random_White_Guy]

EFU is what you make it. To me it's a fun little stage to get creative ideas out, have some fun with different character types, cause some mischief, and move on to the next. As Mort said I suck at PvP. But that's okay. Because PvP is just a tool.

Yet PvP is -only- a tool that is avoided or embraced. There's not much middle ground. I'll be honest: the "lol Imma beat people up on the roads and take their gear" is as old as Underdark itself on EFU. Get some levels, get some gear, cause some mischief, gather some potions, and brawl. Yet if that is all people do, they die that way quick. Either get more reckless or a gank comes or what have you. "Win"? No. Usually folks like that are forgotten easily enough.

PvP is a means to an end. Kidnapping a PC is infinitely more epic than just ambush for potions. Yet there's a problem: EFU doesn't stop once PvP starts unless one man is left standing. Shouting "Stop or she dies" while standing over a subdued PC just means "QUICK GET HIM BEFORE HE CAN SWITCH MODES" But A Kidnapper who successfully gets a ransom for a PC is either going to get his teeth kicked in or live to get his teeth kicked in another day. It has a lasting effect on a PC, on a PC's friends, and more, and usually everyone walks away alive.

Yet the end is "Conflict", and as someone who survived a kidnapping and the kidnapper didn't because of a giant squad, conflict was greatly had.

Sure it's fun to PvP and win, but sometimes it's fun to PvP and lose. The rebel spitting in the face of the guard before his head cut off, the paladin courageously facing down 5 evil PCs and shouting to his god before his sacrifice, etc.

All adds to conflict. All adds to fun. All adds to EFU. PvP is just a means.

[mjones3]

Not playing a necromancer is indeed a good way to avoid Druidic gank squads. :P

Actualy druids should only be against necromancers who summon undead or use undead in any capacity. Other than that they likely should have nothing wrong with one who casts fear spells, or uses negative energy over other magics. Negative energy is the balance of positive energy.

[Decimate_The_Weak]

I am very, very pleased to have read what I did so far in this thread as it is so enlightening, it even opens your eyes to some of the aspects of EfU that you often overlook.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

In my opinion, PvP is a tool (as stated by RwG) & a very useful tool, but is most often the least rewarding tool to use from the rather infinite amount at your disposal.

A lot of people that play upon EfU see the PCs like Dagmer Rus, Karida Intisar, Caius Drayden, etc, that constantly destroy people in PvP, but what they don't see is the RP behind the scenes, the footwork to make them ascend up the ladder.

An event I will always remember was a duel between Karida & Rumpclaw, in which both agreed would not be to the death. The duel was close, but though they both wanted to kill eachother, they didn't. They left it at that. It was heart-pounding, it was entertaining to watch, it was flashy, but it was flavorful & still PvP.

I love when I see RwG play such a weak PC, yet he lives (rarely) for a reasonable time, dodging his enemies, and succeeding in ways other than PvP & guess what? HE GETS RECOGNITION.

The last thing I'd like to point out is, don't always jump the gun when an enemy rises up. Yes, killing them before they reach any amount of fruition, might make you seem as though you prevailed, but allowing a long-lasting conflict & building of story is far more rewarding in the end, and far more enjoyable.

Treat your fellow players with mercy, be considerate, and more times than not, they will treat you that way in return.

DTW

[Cluckyx]

Hold onto your hats, this is a long one, I talk about a lot of shit, but it's all going somewhere, trust me.


The best way to look at this is to look at it in terms of gamers, games and more specifically, the game of Neverwinter Nights.

EfU is Neverwinter Nights, and Neverwinter Nights is a game and is subject to all the other quirks and such that all other games are subject to.

Now how do most western RPG games function(We're  not including JRPGs in this)?
 Hell even the NWN singleplayer espouses the following qualities in the protagonist and therefore the player by proxy.

• Indomitability
• Me (Us) against the world.
• Mercilessness
• Kleptomania

Let us look at these things in detail.

Indomitability
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RPGs are usually about a goal, something happens at the beginning of the story, and then the protagonist(s) apply themselves until they can achieve that goal. Sure there are deviances along the way (side quests) but these deviances always return to the main line of progression. And there is no going back! If you die at the boss. You start again just before the boss, and you fight the boss again and again until you kill him. For all the "big world" claims a lot of games make, there is still a very linear undertone. This mentality applied to EfU is of course what can lead to a PvP loser going away buffing up like crazy and coming back for round 2 instantly. This is also what leads to the majority of PvPs hitting FD so early, because people are worried that if they don't kill this person, he'll come back and kill them 10 minutes later. NWN as a game engine even espouses this by letting a player who has just been beat the fuck down get up and run like a champ, or ingest several gallons of potion and being ready to pwn.

 But tantamount to that, it is natural for players to be in the same linear mindset when it comes to their characters, they set their goal and see any deviance from that goal as essentially "game over" if something stands in the path of their goal it is to be knocked over without pausing to acknowledge, appreciate or interact with it. This again is natural as RPGs never give you the option "Would you like to to try and reason with this opponent".

What does this have to do with EfU?: Well instantly here is one of the problems, we are playing a linear genre, on a linear game, in a linear engine. Yet we are trying to play one of the least linear games possible, players that see an obstacle in their path feel that the only option is to butt against it over and over again until that obstacle is gone, maybe you can walk around it, go over it, go under it, or even take a different direction. There is no single goal, there is just the journey. Hell, you may find something cooler.

Me (Us) against the world.
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 You have to remember here, that the NWN engine was never built with the MMORPG construct in mind. In normal RPGs there are usually a healthy number of NPCs dotted around a world, as with such numbers there isn't a chance in hell of developing and understanding full backgrounds and motivations for all those NPCs, so instead they are broken down into 3 types of character you interact with.

• People who exist to further your cause
• People who are just there for the sake of it
• People who exist to hinder your cause[/i]
  

This leads to a very closed mindset and trains players to only define other people in their gaming world in terms of use to the furthering of their own cause. Psychologically it is a very small step to apply exactly the same standards to all the other players in the server. You quickly single out those that are on your side and are to be quested with and supported, and those that are to be destroyed without a consideration as to why they are that way. The shallowness of NPCs in this way causes you to look at all NPCs in the same manner. The antagonist has one purpose, and that purpose is to fuck you over. The farmer has one purpose, and that purpose is to give you a quest. The Yokel has one purpose and that is to provide comic relief when you talk to him.

This leads to a lot of instances of

a) People with false pretenses pretending to be on your side and never EVER being called on it because all the player sees is someone with an ALLY sticker on their forhead and that is all they need to know.  
b) People who appear evil but have dark secrets that will develop as they develop getting FD'd early because players see "Bad guy. Stomp Bad guy"


What does this have to do with EfU?: In EfU NPCs are everywhere, so are real people. There are purposes to them in terms other than those that relate to you. This Black and White help me or hinder me attitude in EfU leads to people making Nemesis and Blood Brothers at the drop of a hat. They go on one quest and from then on they would die for eachother. You have one showdown and now that person is your friggin' nemesis and they MUST. BE. DESTROYED. Where on reflection that person may be in it for the money the same as you, and that person is just an asshole. One altercation is not a good reason for a blood feud. The school bully gives you a swollen lip, do you go in the next day and shank him?
 Conflict and Teamwork comes in all shapes and sizes, not just HUGE.


Mercilessness
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This sort of follows on from Indomitability, western RPGs are all about peaks and troughs. Building up to a climax, having that climax and then beginning the build up to a bigger one. How often do we see in RPGs (and films for that matter) where our dashing hero lets an antagonist live, and then 5 minutes later, the antagonist comes back and fucks him in the ass for his mercy. But this is because following the two things we have already discussed, the following things are expected about the antagonist.

• His only purpose in any way shape or form is to fuck you over.
• The same indomitability is expected of him as of the player, so if he fails and you let him live, he's coming at you again.

This usually means that the only option expected by the game is one that results in the antagonist being neutralised either now, or later when he tries again (I say neutralised as opposed to killed because it could be through any means, in jail, turned to stone, whatever... he has been removed from the story for the duration of the game). This leads to a lot of FDs in game because an FD is solving your problem forever. But you are cutting down a possibility of real story, you see something green sprouting through the soil. Do you pull it assuming it's a weed, or do you wait to see if it becomes a sweet ass flower?

What does this have to do with EfU?: The ending of the life of another is a pretty fucking big deal. How often do you kill someone? In EfU we have the benefit of having a very solid line drawn between monsters and people. Even the humanoid monsters are definitely monsters. There's no gray area. Now I will argue against myself here and say "what else is there to do?".  Just damaging someone isn't really effective when they're one potion from being able to walk off like it never happened, this is again another effect of playing within an engine focused on the Us Vs the World mentality (See above). But with help, there ARE ways, and until you explore them, you won't know what they are, but you'll be a much more interesting and vibrant roleplayer for it regardless.

Kleptomania
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For those who don't know, Kleptomania is a psychological urge to fucking steal everything.

 It's the ever present joke in game and is here because it is basically the summation of the previous 4 things put together. In Western RPGs it is just the done thing to go into people houses and take all their shit. You go through their chests, you smash their pots, you help yourself to their tablewear you take the shirt off of their back, either for your own use or to sell.
 This is a classic example of the western RPG player who by doing it has made the following assumptions:

• My goal is important and I need this stuff more than they do
• This person exists to make my life easier, therefore their stuff is mine
• I'll take everything, because the more I can sell/use the more I can succeed

This is a reflection of the linear goal orientated application of choice encouraged by the western RPG and the shallow nature of expected of other denziens in the game world.

What does this have to do with EfU?: This rears it's head ingame in the form of "drylooting" a frowned upon practice of taking a fallen foe and taking EVERYTHING he has in his pack. The thought process that leads to dry looting is an acute form of the thought process that leads to Crass PvP.

This fallen person has stuff -> His value for it is irrelevant to the 5 gold I'll be able to sell it for -> I will take everything

The same attitude can lead to gross overreactions to small problems because logically the biggest reaction will solve the problem the quickest, but it also makes for a flat and boring landscape of character emotion that just comes across and melodramatic and immature.


Ok fuck this, bored of writing. Most of it is bullshit, but if someone finds some meaning it it, let me know so I can look like I know what I'm talking about.

Peace Out.

[O'louth]

Best post I have read on a roleplaying game forum in... a long long long time.

[N/A]

PvP is the only thing that matters if you make yourself believe that. Conflict is a part of it, yes, like of any story. But if you keep on telling yourself that you'll get PvPed or killed, you will drift towards that mindset and be unhappy. Best to just simmer down.

[Jayde Moon]

I like these posts, because everyone who isn't good at PvP outs themselves and I can put them on my 'People to Gank' list :P

I keed!

I'd write something relevant and meaningful, but as I'm late to this party, I don't want to restart any actual debating, just my random little joke thurr.

I'll be back from my summer training in a few days.

Stay hot, EfU!

[Aethereal]

For those who don't know, Kleptomania is a psychological urge to fucking steal everything.

It's the ever present joke in game and is here because it is basically the summation of the previous 4 things put together. In Western RPGs it is just the done thing to go into people houses and take all their shit. You go through their chests, you smash their pots, you help yourself to their tablewear you take the shirt off of their back, either for your own use or to sell.

Excellent post, Cluckyx. I enjoyed it. And some good posts elsewhere regarding the place for PvP as a story telling tool rather than purely a means of competition or test of skill.

[The Old Hack]

About ingame conflict:

As I see it, 'conflict' does not equate to 'PvP'. There are many ways of establishing conflict. Conflict can be an argument in the tavern. It can be about who is the best in a given craft. It can be about trying to establish a trade monopoly and getting confronted with someone who refuses to play. It can be harsh public exchanges between two important political figures from different factions. It can be Aberdenn and Caermyn competing to see who can bring in the most deer meat in a single day, or who can catch the biggest fish. It can be all sorts of things that never involve a drawn weapon or a hand raised in anger. And while they sometimes produce PvP, it will often be either a mere roadsign on the way or even anticlimactic if someone dies in the middle of a good conflict.

I personally usually avoid PvP. My current character Rook Thornwood is an exception. And even she doesn't kill her defeated enemies under normal circumstances. The IC excuse is that she just isn't mean enough for that, the OOC reason is... it helps conflict of the kind I mentioned above if the enemy gets to stay alive. And most importantly of all, her defeated enemy gets to live and have fun again at a later time.


About 'succeeding' as a character:

As I see it, you have success with your character if you enjoy playing it. Even if DMs seem to utterly ignore you. That doesn't necessarily mean that they hate you, it just means that your way of having fun is so quiet and simple that it is almost overkill to use DM time on it. If you have a grand time roleplaying around the card table or walking in the woods, great! But do you really need a DM to spawn half a dozen exploding pigs on your game of cards for it to be exciting enough? >.>


About goals and DM attention:

Again, this is how I see it: If you are making a goal in the hopes of getting DM attention for it, you are already a good part of the way to disappointment. Far better to make one you yourself can have fun with, and if it is something you can involve other players in, great! It doesn't have to be a big goal, it doesn't have to be realistic, it just has to be fun. And in the end, you don't even have to succeed -- you just need to have fun on the way.

Examples:

1) Pay Off the Dominion's Debt and End The Famine. Totally unrealistic for just one character. But I had a grand old time accumulating gold and then dumping all of it into the Dominion fund, as well as helping out anyone else who appeared to work towards that end. And as I carried on, I slowly made PC friends and supporters in different places. I never had a guild, coterie or anything. But I never really tried to get one and didn't want one that much either.

2) Live Free or Die. An extremely simple goal and very open ended. It led to massive amounts of friends, enemies, intrigues and nearly open war on the 'corrupt Stygians' (quotation marks to show it was the PC's point of view.) It was also the only character goal I ever achieved, I died rather than be enslaved. :)

3) Monitor That Damn Mythallar, Try To Find Out What Makes It Tick And Pray To Mystra It Doesn't Blow Up. This one I never got anyone except myself involved in and I am not sure the DMs even noticed I had it. But it was my second longest lived character and I had awesome fun roleplaying her living in constant fear of That Damn Mythallar.

4) Revise the Dominion Code of Law and Establish Magistrates Independent of Law Enforcement. Errrr... yeah. That one never got off the ground. I had barely started playing the character when the world inconveniently started to end. I still had great fun playing her, though, I managed to mutate her goal into 'Stop The World From Ending, Apocalypses Are Untidy.' I did not get much DM attention but that was OK, they were all busy with the end of the world. :)

As you can see, some of them would probably require DM attention to succeed but none of them needed DM attention just to run along. And I actually had a lot of fun even while failing!

~tOH.

[Underbard]

Hack nailed it... Not much else can be said here.

[PlayaCharacter]

Karida Intisar

Actually, I'd like to give that griefer a piece of my mind...

...

Just kidding, that was without question the best PvP death I've ever had, and it should be an example to anyone who wants to go a-ganking through the Archipelago.

It was a good death because I knew it was coming, I had a chance to escape / avoid my fate (though at great cost, one that my PC was ultimately not willing to pay), and I was able to do a bit of role-play before the PC died. I've never had a bad PvP experience when all of those conditions were met.