PVP And why it's the only thing that matters

[Wafflecone]

Why bother finding non ganksquad ways to handle problems? Thats all anyone loves to do and thats the only way to get props.

The context of these comments was a discussion about finding alternatives to the Nature Gank, IE, druids coming out of the woods fullbuffed to randomly smack PC's that have been beefing with them, sometimes druids the characters in question have never even encountered of heard of.
 

That's a very shallow perspective of things and I hope it's a joke because it's very untrue.

People keep saying that, but it really isn't that untrue. PVP Conflict has been, to my observation, the ultimate goal and means of all 'high profile' characters. If you want to have a meaningful impact on the server you need to be good at game mechanics and good at PVP. This has been expressed openly to me by several longtime players.
 
Peaceful solutions don't result in faction promotion or respect, and while they can garner DM attention they don't garner nearly as much as PVP - admittedly this is probably partly because DM's are -required- to oversee pvp, meaning this is by in large the majority of what they have time to see when they're not hunting bugs, helping players, or running quests.
 
I have been out and out told by long time players that this game is about winning, and that people who don't understand the mechanics of making a good PVP character are doomed to failure and DESERVE to fail because the games been out so long that everyone should really know what they're doing by this point.
 
If an IC conflict doesn't exist, an exscuse will be made and it will be created to validate the PVP activity. Usually this will occur after a PC has reached lvl 8 or higher and has some DM loot and good kit, for good measure.
 
Yes, I am aware this all sounds somewhat bitter and inb4 "cry some more loser" trolling, btw - and rest assured I am indeed somewhat bitter, but not angry or indignant. It just seems to be the way things are.

[DangerousDan]

You seem to be pretty egregiously misinformed about EfU. It is conflict heavy, no doubt, and many other NWN servers are less quick to accept FD as a consequence of player choice. (I'd add that many of these servers are far less inclined to respond to player effort than we are).

I personally find PVP one of the less entertaining means of conflict resolution, and will always encourage people to find interesting and creative ways to interact with each other. The current Mayoral race has been home to some pretty amazing intrigue, for example. All the Candidates have been up to a great deal that isn't evident in their forum posts- if you'd taken the time to dig a little bit, then there'd have been no need to make a bombastic post about how everyone PVPs 24/7.

I'd say that if you are feeling pvp is the only way to resolve your conflicts, then the issue isn't with the server right now.

[Dr Dragon]

The context of these comments was a discussion about finding alternatives to the Nature Gank, IE, druids coming out of the woods fullbuffed to randomly smack PC's that have been beefing with them, sometimes druids the characters in question have never even encountered of heard of.
 

 
People keep saying that, but it really isn't that untrue. PVP Conflict has been, to my observation, the ultimate goal and means of all 'high profile' characters. If you want to have a meaningful impact on the server you need to be good at game mechanics and good at PVP. This has been expressed openly to me by several longtime players.
 
Peaceful solutions don't result in faction promotion or respect, and while they can garner DM attention they don't garner nearly as much as PVP - admittedly this is probably partly because DM's are -required- to oversee pvp, meaning this is by in large the majority of what they have time to see when they're not hunting bugs, helping players, or running quests.
 
I have been out and out told by long time players that this game is about winning, and that people who don't understand the mechanics of making a good PVP character are doomed to failure and DESERVE to fail because the games been out so long that everyone should really know what they're doing by this point.
 
If an IC conflict doesn't exist, an exscuse will be made and it will be created to validate the PVP activity. Usually this will occur after a PC has reached lvl 8 or higher and has some DM loot and good kit, for good measure.
 
Yes, I am aware this all sounds somewhat bitter and inb4 "cry some more loser" trolling, btw - and rest assured I am indeed somewhat bitter, but not angry or indignant. It just seems to be the way things are.

Id say PVP really is not necessary. In fact I could say you can have your enemies killed with 0 skill in PVP. Also if you honestly think mechanic and PVP skills are the only way to achieve your goals or defeat your foes. Then you lack creativity as well as abstract thought.

[Big Orc Man]

PVP conflict and killings may seem to be the most effective methods of conflict resolution because they are a) sudden and noticeable, and b) they yield immediately results.  However, the tremendous downside is that they create a tremendous amount of blowback!

Characters who are quick to murder and assassinate at the drop of a hat often find themselves with far more enemies than they can truly handle, and they quickly flame out and fall from grace.

Characters who know when to resort to bloodshed, and when other, more devious methods will work are often the most successful.

[TakenByVisions]

People keep saying that, but it really isn't that untrue. PVP Conflict has been, to my observation, the ultimate goal and means of all 'high profile' characters. If you want to have a meaningful impact on the server you need to be good at game mechanics and good at PVP. This has been expressed openly to me by several longtime players.

I doubt it. Any time the discussion comes up you log out of IRC in a rage and refuse to listen. -Conflict- is a primary source of entertainment and fun and you even succeeded in creating it on Annette. Conflict comes in countless forums and is almost always entertaining to everyone involved (even if the end result is not, that's hard to always do). We are not playing a campaign where everyone is aligned and you have to understand that opposing forces must challenge one another to succeed in the long run.
 

Peaceful solutions don't result in faction promotion or respect, and while they can garner DM attention they don't garner nearly as much as PVP - admittedly this is probably partly because DM's are -required- to oversee pvp, meaning this is by in large the majority of what they have time to see when they're not hunting bugs, helping players, or running quests.

This is simply not true. The result is the success and you can be rewarded for it whether you obtain it by peaceful words, pvp, trickery, or whatever else. Sometimes PvP is the means to achieve the goal and sometimes it is not, and no matter what it can be avoided at most times if you actually try to do so and it is fitting for your character to do so. Remember that we are playing "above average" heroes, adventurers, explorers, clerics, and whatever else here. We are -not- playing the commoner or the average person of whatever town, and thus our actions in any category are often more extreme or prominent than typical.
 

I have been out and out told by long time players that this game is about winning, and that people who don't understand the mechanics of making a good PVP character are doomed to failure and DESERVE to fail because the games been out so long that everyone should really know what they're doing by this point.

You were told that the game is about enjoyment and fun. It's about a story and progressing that story according to your character's goals. You were also told that refusing to learn and choosing to remain fully ignorant (once again, a choice) of even basic mechanics will cost you heavily. Your choice was to fully relate it to PvP when it truly relates to the entire game in a way.

  I found it far more entertaining to -easily- demolish scripted quests while providing flavor through emotes and other RP along the way than to press through it in silence struggling to survive. I find other people capable of doing this, whether they slow things down or not, to be far more enjoyable as well. The same can be said for DM events and whatever else. Having a bit of confidence in your ability to portray your character's actual power is wonderful in so many ways.

If an IC conflict doesn't exist, an exscuse will be made and it will be created to validate the PVP activity. Usually this will occur after a PC has reached lvl 8 or higher and has some DM loot and good kit, for good measure.
 
Yes, I am aware this all sounds somewhat bitter and inb4 "cry some more loser" trolling, btw - and rest assured I am indeed somewhat bitter, but not angry or indignant. It just seems to be the way things are.

Once again, this is completely untrue. You are fully relating the story to PvP rather than the conflict at hand. You are also speaking as a person who has been fully reactive in nature and forced yourself to -react- to what happens rather than initiate and perhaps change the actions, behavior, or result of your rivals and the story.

You played a great character, a powerful cleric of Chauntea who had many chances and took many others to oppose "evil" or opposing forces. In the end however, you did not pursue that conflict and hid behind a veil of protection that is offered by existing state of things. The end result was thus more extreme and perhaps ruthless than it ever needed to be, and yet it was all decided upon by your (rather prominent) character's decisions.

I would highly suggest that you spend a little bit of time simply learning the game you spend probably every day playing, and furthermore suggest that you take some time to understand the countless possibilities that could have been beyond what came to be. Without sounding like my own character too much here, what I'm saying is that you should really try and understand the situation from other angles and understand the choices that were made to reveal the end. Hire people, form groups, do what you did and expand upon it further and truly oppose your rivals in many ways. You'll find that it's pretty easy to shut people (characters) down in almost any way you wish to (pvp, words, reputation, faith,).

[Valo56]

PvP influences EfU a great deal, perhaps it even influences it the most, but it doesn't even account for half of it. A lot of the "problem," if there is one, is the shoot first mentality. "Gank them before they can gank you," so to speak. Thus people are quick to PvP more than to diplomacy at times.

Just a bit of advice.. I hope it helps:
-In regards to FD kills, think to yourself "Why should I let this person live?" rather than "Why shouldn't I let this person live?" Work out a plan for what you'll do with the person BEFORE the PvP even begins, if possible.
-Don't be afraid to PvP, the last thing we need (in my opinion) is carebearism, where people are afraid of stepping on other's toes OOC'ly though IC conflict. But don't be too eager to jump to it.
-Don't focus on the outcome of anything, be it a fight, a quest, a plot, or even simply your character. Have fun killing the orcs, not looting them afterward.
-Avoid doing everything in YOUR power to 'win.' Do everything in your character's power, but never everything in your power. An example of this is letting your character have a weakness, dropping hints of your evil master plan that your character would rather not have known.
-You don't change the world all at once. You change it one person at a time. Focus on other PC's, not on DM support. Consider how many dozens of active players we have right now, and compare that to how many DM's there are. Generally there's only 1-3 DM's on when things are good, and about 30-40 or even up to 50 players. DM attention is unlikely at best, so focus on doing stuff with other players without having to rely on DM attention to advance something.

Pushing forward a plot is tough (at least, for me and likely you, too), and it's tough to gauge how much others like what you're doing or how much progress you're making. The best you can do (or at least, what I try hard to do for my plots) is keep working at it, and work on giving any PC's trying to help you good rewards in gold and loot, and keep things exciting.

[Mort]

Yes. This is why all the Drows died. Because PvP matters. It certainly worked out great for them!

* * *

This is why the person that is currently 'succeeding' the Drow Plot is doing so without PvP'ing anyone.

* * *

I just pointed out one instance where PvP turned disastrous. One instance where no PvP/diplomacy is yielding/yielded impressive results. There are tons of those.

You're assuming that great characters are great because they win PvP, which couldn't be farther from the truth. I always am moderately annoyed by characters who are to 'win' it, and toss aside courtesy/roleplay, whether it's by metagaming someone's identity, assuming every animal you see with a unique name are lycanthropes/druids, or just abusing their level, subrace or some mechanic of the gameworld.

Hell, I'll point out an even bigger rebuttal to your point. RWG, the guy is as clumsy as it gets for NWN mechanics (sorry dude, it's true), couldn't care less about them, yet he enjoys moderate levels of success with a lot of his PCs. There are tons of people like that, with good ideas/creativity that 'get' it, but aren't after building the most optimized PvP crusher character.

* * *

Yes, you're right. I could build a character, level up. Get some supplies. And likely assassinate anyone that is a public figure in the middle of town. I could probably assassinate the next mayor. Wow. Would that make character said character a winner?! NO. It wouldn't. That character would be labelled a Kodax, i.e. a joke about a half-orc that had no personality, but a powerbuild, an axe, and managed to permakill two great/important PCs in early EFU.

* * *

Anyway, I feel your topic title is misleading. Matters for what? For enjoying EFU? For doing changes to the gameworld? For Politics? For winning plots? For getting DM attention?

PvP matters only for winning PvP, which in some situation is great when the battle is exciting and both sides are thrilled, and some situation is rather bland and dull. It is hit or miss, and should be used in the idea of seeding good PvP Karma, always with the story in mind rather than 'winning'.

[Mort]

Oh, and another rebuttal is that most of the current DMs (DangerousDan,Snoteye,Iron_Oligarch, AKMatt, DeputyCool,etc.) aren't PvP Powerhouse and never were. In fact, I'd argue most of them couldn't care less about it, yet all managed to play interesting PCs over the years.

But do go on with your beliefs.

[Big Orc Man]

Well, all of them but Iron_Oligarch did.

[Mort]

He learned at the end, but for a large part of his career, he was pretty bad (Sorry I_O, it's true)!

[Kinslayer988]

PvP can be fun and interesting every once in a while, but truly it is never good to make a character built around it.
You don't need to perma unless you have to. I myself perfer characters with unique personalities and truly, I have not been powerquesting or done PvP for quite some time!

[Arch Rogue]

This notion that PvP is the crux of everything on EFU really just annoys me, and as Mort said couldn't be farther from the truth. This poisonous idea (really, I mean this; airing this sort of false assertion in public can potentially drive new players away and/or infect the minds of other players) is not in the least reflective of EFU at all, and ultimately is derived from a disconnect with reality born of a player's limited appreciation of the nuances of any given situation.

What I mean to say is, a player's perception is 9/10 times limited at best. They do not see any of the secret roleplay that may occur between other characters, they do not see the plans or know the true alignment or goals of another PC, they don't see the secret or faction forums of the PC and what notes they contain, they don't know or any NPC-PC relations that might influence things...they can only -guess-. Even in some 'clear cut' cases, players have been so very wrong in their assumptions.

So if you walk past some group being waylaid by a druid and he slaughters a few of them, don't just ASSUME that it was a brutal gank with no prior roleplay or non-PvP conflict leading up to it. This is EFU, and if anything, you should assume that there was a great deal of fitting RP leading to the PvP. That would be a much safer bet, and would save you the trouble of writing flailing, bombastic and essentially erroneous posts about the nature of PvP and EFU.

[Egon the Monkey]

Peaceful objectives can get attention, but they have to be interesting for other PCs. Give them danger, responsibility, a chance to earn money, respect, secrets. RwG and I_O are masters at this sort of thing, talk to them. No matter what your PC is, you need to know what their best weapon is and use it. It might be a greataxe or Numerous Fireballs, but equally it could be words, allies, stealth or information. I wasn't opposing you so I can't comment, but you didn't seem to have sneaky allies feeding you information or goons chasing down your more violent enemies. One of my favourite periods of EFU:A was playing a lieutenant to Viordai Antalinov. He'd send me off to spy on the Banite temple, gather the rare resources for his alchemy or uncover the mole in our organisation. Importantly he'd reward my PC for it with pay, equipment and trust. It helps to secure loyalty with more than "Same alignment or goals, let's be BFFs".

If you want to work on peaceful stuff, find a way to "sprinkle some crush on it" to attract players like VP. Find some deliberately dangerous goals and use them to attract the players that want a challenge. Assign them to that project. For example, there are lots of corrupted plant monsters. Perhaps you could have paid a bounty for the first PC to kill (and screeny) the death of one of each type of monster, and written up dissection notes. Then tried to create your own plant monsters as guardians. Find some commercial or espionage goals, attract those sort of PCs. Most importantly, find short term goals that don't need DMs but do show your efforts. You might want to make a temple but that requires a lot of money and it's of no interest to anyone but you unless you get PCs involved. Take Mororn, he has a big long term goal but also takes every opportunity for short term charity and healing anyone injured. Or look at Caddies' clerics with all their doomsaying and sermons.

Something you should take away from time spent playing Anette though. She was stronger than you thought, and a little time  spent on mechanics and money spent on gear would have given you more combat options. Low STR but 18 WIS means an offense spell is deadly. There is no such thing as a "PVP character" or an "RP character", there are only "characters". Sometimes these characters scheme, sometimes they fight each other or mobs. Deliberately choosing at every point to be weak in combat doesn't make your PC a "better RPer" for it, though it can suit extremely pacifistic PCs if you don't mind the consequences. That is in my mind as destructive an assumption as the idea that you must play a powerbuild to succeed in fights as it perpetuates the idea that there is an' RP EfU' and a an 'Arena EfU'.

[Wafflecone]

The first thing i'd like to do is apologize for how inflammatory my initial post came off. I would also like to thank people for some of their longer posts, particularly TakenbyVisions, and the articulate way they presented themselves.
 
Much of what has been said, I will conceed, is true, and I was incorrect in saying PVP is the most important part of EFU. But there are some niggling points I'd want to bring up.
 

I doubt it. Any time the discussion comes up you log out of IRC in a rage and
refuse to listen.

Part of my frustration may lay in my, frankly, perhaps less than wise choice to often be on IRC because I enjoy the sometimes witty company there. But if things on IRC were expressed half as well as they were on the forums, we might not be having this thread. The reason I 'log out in a rage' is because discussions there are often ridiculing, trolling, and sometimes I feel at least a little insulting.
 
I can appreciate that most if not all of it is just braggadicio and injoking, and I know you need a thick skin on the internet, but some days- that discussion inparticular, it is just too much. I don't need to be told I don't know how to play simply because I never had the NEED to master mechanics to such a degree. I pointed that out saying that 'most people who play NWN never really need to master mechanics', and the response I recieved was "I read that as 'most people who play nwn are idiots who can't figure out how to play a 5 year old game'." Then some backpatting about how people are scrubs and need to l2play followed and I thought it was best just to log off and avoid the conversation entirely, whatever may have come up after I left.
 

This notion that PvP is the crux of everything on EFU really just annoys me, and as Mort said couldn't be farther from the truth. This poisonous idea (really, I mean this; airing this sort of false assertion in public can potentially drive new players away and/or infect the minds of other players) is not in the least reflective of EFU at all, and ultimately is derived from a disconnect with reality born of a player's limited appreciation of the nuances of any given situation.

But directly above your post is a quote by egon, saying
 

Well, let's put it this way: EfU is a huge sandbox. But the sand is full of broken glass and cat shite And you dont get much attention for making sandcastles. But if you set one of the other kids on fire and piss on the burning corpse. THEN build a castle out the now-damn blood caked sand. THAT my friends, is EfU

[/I]

It's not just a fallacious fringe idea. It's a black undercurrant i've felt expressed, usually in joking terms, by players who've been around far longer than I have.
 

You played a great character, a powerful cleric of Chauntea who had many chances and took many others to oppose "evil" or opposing forces. In the end however, you did not pursue that conflict and hid behind a veil of protection that is offered by existing state of things. The end result was thus more extreme and perhaps ruthless than it ever needed to be, and yet it was all decided upon by your (rather prominent) character's decisions.

I never really felt Anette was a success. Maybe thats just me, and my own neurosis. I felt she had finally come started to together and was able to indirectly influence a large number of people, though she never had any directy influence over more than one or two people at any time- she was never the leader I tried to make her, not in a direct capacity anyway, though she was just on the cusp of it when she died. But this post wasn't about Anette. The death was slightly suprising but it wasn't shitty- I fail to see what her living in town had to do with anything, though. I don't really take what your meaning, there.
------
 
Anyway the reason this mess of a thread even came up was partly, in a more recent character, Nick. I made him just to do...something,  and alot about him right down to his low Charisma and alignment was, aside from being an intrinsic part of his backround (because it is) was also a way to step out of my generalities- I wanted to play a character without the pressure to oppose evil, or the pressure to be opposed by good, one who would largely not care about political or materialistic concerns- someone more interested in their own personal and spiritual journey than any conflict going on around him.
 
Then. Numishgat, Bonescreechs exceedingly well played monk informed him that he's going to go around beating up every monk who doesn't proscribe to his philosophy and take their lunch money.
 
Bonescreech is a great player, not dissing him or Numishghat in anyway, but it struck a nerve of irritation to me. The conflict seemed senseless from my (likly unimformed) perspective, something brought on because a character had reached an apex point in their development and the player was looking for something new to do with them. This is an impulse I can understand and perhaps a natural progression of a character journey. But since I had intended the character to largely be a break and (somewhat ironically considering his behavior) relaxing, it irritated me more then it should have, leading to my increasingly erratic play the last few days.

I really love this server. I am so glad it's free of so much of the stupid bullshit that has plagued every server i've played on since I first started playing NWN years ago. But i've always been better at the pnp 'cooperative party' structure than interpersonal conflict. Overcoming challenges with others is what appeals to me, and i've done my best to try and express that in my characters, never really succeeding to my own satisfaction.

[Jasede]

It's true, Bonescreech will whip you up and down and take your lunch money in-character, but he'll do it after painfully writing a pretty cool application and trying his darnedest to bring some unique angle of conflict to the table.

Peace and love, everyone.