"Racism" and "Speciesism" (?)

[The Pathfinder]

Well, I don't think that's silly either. There's depths to Balop's character that aren't readily apparent on the surface. It's the reason why I look forward to our rivalry! I think that we all know there are exceptions, especially among PCs and adventurers, and it's how those personalities play out that makes it incredibly interesting to me.

Actually, for that reason, it kind of bugs me when there's an argument going on and everyone that isn't involved stands off to the side, smugly saying how arguments are silly. Arguing your beliefs is the fundamental part of having beliefs. Yes, maybe you'd rather be questing or scheming than arguing in the streets, but it is those arguments that form the basis of a real, living world with people whose beliefs are legitimate, even when they are directly opposed.

[Cerberus]

That is not entirely fair, nor is it true to how prejudices work in RL. There are many examples, historical and present, of people who had to go into exile and nonetheless brought all their prejudices along with them. You might argue that said dwarf should just settle in the Delve, but what if he doesn't like that there is actually Withering (if mild) in there? Or even if there wasn't, he might still choose the human town because it is easier for him to profit from his profession there.

And believe me, I know of many RL examples of this sort of exile taking their prejudices along and pursuing them to their utmost, be it out of conviction or simple spite. We currently have lots of them in Denmark, for example.

~tOH.

A true racist would show complete racial pride to the point of calling another of his own race or religion a "XXX-lover!" were they to defend yet another race that is not their own (i.e.; Dwarf hates halforcs but defends humans = "Human Lover!"). To hate one differing race while defending another differing race is not racism, it's probably something on a more personal level which in turn removes the word racist from the equation.

[Cerberus]

That is not entirely fair, nor is it true to how prejudices work in RL. There are many examples, historical and present, of people who had to go into exile and nonetheless brought all their prejudices along with them. You might argue that said dwarf should just settle in the Delve, but what if he doesn't like that there is actually Withering (if mild) in there? Or even if there wasn't, he might still choose the human town because it is easier for him to profit from his profession there.

And believe me, I know of many RL examples of this sort of exile taking their prejudices along and pursuing them to their utmost, be it out of conviction or simple spite. We currently have lots of them in Denmark, for example.

~tOH.

A true racist would show complete racial pride to the point of calling another of his own race or religion a "XXX-lover!" were they to defend yet another race that is not their own (Dwarf hates halforcs but defends humans = "Human Lover!"). To hate one differing race while defending another differing race is not racism, it's probably something on a more personal level which in turn removes the word racist from the equation.

[The Old Hack]

Actually, for that reason, it kind of bugs me when there's an argument going on and everyone that isn't involved stands off to the side, smugly saying how arguments are silly. Arguing your beliefs is the fundamental part of having beliefs.

I should in passing note that it is possible to stand off side to an argument without either being smug or calling all arguments silly. It is, for example, completely legitimate to either consider a given topic silly or, alternately, to disapprove of the way the participants in the argument are behaving. (ICly, of course! OOCly I think they are doing an awesome job!) Or you might just be a stodgy member of the Watch who resents ALL arguing not because it is silly but because it adds to your workload by stirring up trouble.

Apart from that, I agree. The arguments and those involved in them really add to the mood of the game and thus are not silly at all. :)

A true racist would show complete racial pride to the point of calling another of his own race or religion a "XXX-lover!" were they to defend yet another race that is not their own (i.e.; Dwarf hates halforcs but defends humans = "Human Lover!"). To hate one differing race while defending another differing race is not racism, it's probably something on a more personal level which in turn removes the word racist from the equation.

Indeed. The name of the game is prejudice rather than racism. And as we have been reminded, ICly the word racism does not belong at all as it carries too many immersion-breaking connotations along with it.

~tOH.

[BlackLion]

The way Halforcs are treated is certainly unfair, but directly reinforced by canon in almost all instances (from their racial description to how they appear in canon FR stories), and intended to create an atmosphere wherein players rise above this churlish behavior through heroism. I hope people don't conflate real life racism, which is stupid and ignorant, with fake mythological Racism, which is based on -actual- race as Halforcs are infact a different species, not just humans with a different amount of melanin present in their skin.

If you want to struggle against this sort of thing IG, create a half-orc who breaks stereotypes.

[The Old Hack]

Blacklion: Hear hear.

Brok'tor Kildare was of this sort and one of the most memorable characters of EfU: A. He became the Champion of the Order and is currently being remembered by a thread in the public forum.

Edit: Or not. Darn Herostrat and his all too keen eye for Order political correctness! >.>

[Nihm]

Sorry if someone already said it, but racism does not usually mean outright aggression.  It means the ones considered inferior are given lower places in society.  The violence comes about when they try to rise above their designated role.
 
A character who doesn't like half orcs may see their rightful places as slaves or cannon fodder in a battle.  It doesn't nessecarily mean he wants them all to die.

[Big Orc Man]

Flawless characters are, without exception, boring characters.

When heroes lack vices and villains lack virtues, things feel like they're made out of cardboard.

Superstition, prejudice, etc. are a great character flaw for a hero to have.

[AfroMullet]

Seems almost as if people want to force other characters to be racist because, apparently, there are no other flaws to have.

[Big Orc Man]

Any character who thinks half-orcs, halflings, gnomes, and humans all behave similarly and have similar tendencies is probably pretty stupid.

[wcsherry]

Just to be clear, most NPC's will be prejudiced towards the appropriate FR villain or monster that is contrary to their race or social standing.

That means that:

Humans, Gnomes, et al will hate half-orcs without a question.

Everyone will hate orcs, goblins, kobolds, duergars, ETC ETC.

Your PC is an adventurer, so it's more realistic that they'd carry outlandish views on prejudice that'd clash with traditional viewpoints.

Just don't expect any favors from NPC's, or for them to view your PC as sane in some cases.

Remember:

Prejudice = Normal

Tolerance = Not Normal

Easy enough.

[tropic]

It's more important to inform players that this kind of discrimination can be part of their story than it is to say that it should be. Consider where your character comes from and their experiences and then extrapolate to derive their views on other groups. A mercenary may have served with half-orcs and found them to be good, bad, or (more likely) somewhere in between - maybe they base their entire viewpoint on a racial group on their interactions with a single one. Adventurers are the exceptions in the world of FR. They are (typically) smarter and more cosmopolitan than the average small-town guard or backwater farmer.

The DMs have made it clear where NPCs are likely to stand, but I don't think that should extend too far into the PC territory...

ninja-edit: What I mean to say is that we should be encouraging subtlety and nuance in these kinds of interactions. As an (admittedly unsubtle) example... instead of saying "You can't join my quest group," bring them along but give them less of a share of the spoils. If they ask why, "It's the orcblood tax." And then you've created in-character conflict without being entirely exclusive.

[Prairial Twenty-Two]

Maybe even you're playing a high-wisdom PC with a lot of experience  meeting different races and inclined to judge individuals as  individuals, but if so this should be a part of your concept and be somewhat rare.

[BlackLion]

Conversly, I play an uthgardian with 8 Wisdom who doesn't have experiance meeting any races who thinks all elves are immortal bloodless fey, Dwarves are born from rock, and halflings are 'vaettirffolken' - Trollings, feycousins. Halforcs of course, are hated orcbloods.

[Diz-e]

*Uthgardt