"Racism" and "Speciesism" (?)

[Veiled]

I cannot be bothered explaining the point I was making again.

Suffice to say that in efu if your PC expresses a view that half orcs are just like the civilised races or should be treated as 'individuals' then expect your PC to be treated like they have extreme views that are against all norms.

[Pigadig]

Not certain if you really want to make that "real experience and evidence" argument considering, if anything, EFU teaches you very quickly that humans, halflings and dwarves are the races most likely to mug/murder/pickpocket you and be varying shades of evil. Half orcs barely rate a mention in that regard.

[The Old Hack]

I cannot be bothered explaining the point I was making again.

Thank you. It was about to make my brain implode from the pain as it was.

[Veiled]

Anyway, at some point I will be bothered to explain the point, and enlighten you TOH.

This has likely run it's course and can be progressed IG.

[Prairial Twenty-Two]

Solution: How about we finish this discussion, and figure out how much racism we want in EFU, and then take this over to the player compendium, discuss how to blanket this, in general terms, over Forgotten Realms, and CANONIZE it as a change to the setting, stickied in New Player Information or in the Player Compendium forums. This way, there needn't be any future confusion on this issue.

The funny thing is, we already have an established canon about this. Howland, the server's founder and progenitor par excellence, formulated the policy by fiat in the very first post, and subsequent posts, in this thread. He created this thread to address those who were somehow alarmed OOCly by "racism" ICly.

While the discussion that has followed has been amusing and probably healthy, it does not change what EfU policy is.

Namely, the following, and I summarize to make it as crystal clear as possible:

EFU is not the real world. [...]

The terms "racism" or "speciesism" should really not ever be used IC'ly.  These are words that should not really have any meaning whatsoever in  EFU and serve only to break immersion. It makes me cringe. [...]

Not to mention, in EFU, racism is correct. [...]

If the idea of a dwarf hating a goblin just for being a goblin or a drow  an elf or a human a gnome bothers you on an OOC level, this is simply  not appropriate for EFU.

How can there possibly still be any ambiguity about this?

[Noob]

My only concern tbh (since my only issue with racism is how little of it applies to those outside the village, namely towards those that released h'bala even, to be blunt) would be people overlooking their alignment because something is 'acceptable behaviour' - just because something is culturally right say, doesn't mean Good characters should suddenly be able to behave in a manner thats not-Good on a regular basis because of that, it really just means the society they're part of isn't Good in alignment overall.

Cormyr maybe being a fair example, overall a LG/NG kingdom, doesn't particularly have a 'hang the halfbreeds' law despite the recent goblin war; Theres no real clause that would excuse them from murdering goblin prisoners, it would just mean their values changed (which is totally fine).

[Mort]

Theres no real clause that would excuse them from murdering goblin prisoners, it would just mean their values changed (which is totally fine).

I think I might be misinterpreting you, but... You can`t murder goblins, just as you can`t murder undead. They`re monsters, and ergo- GOODLY races/people would see them EXTERMINATED from the face of Faerun, while NEUTRAL/EVIL ones might TOLERATE them.

The more intolerant races are probably the elves, the dwarves, which by a large margin are good, and the goodly nations are probably the LEAST tolerant  of demonspawns, elementalspawns (which most commoners cant see the difference between a genasi and a tiefling, they`re just outsiders, freaks), and orcspawns.

Even the BIOWARE DEFAULT BIOGRAPHY gives you an hint:
"Wherever you travel, those around you either shun you or drive you away because of your orc blood."

As bad as bioware portrayal is, this is accurate.

[Spiffy Has]

Play as your PC sees fit to play. If you want to be an enlightened progressive, feel free (But note! Progressives were probably the most hateful and prejudiced of an American Modern society. :) )

Personally, I feel that, as things progress in game, it's for the better. DOWN WITH HALF ORC SCUM

[Worm Watcher]

Racism doesn't exist, it's just called common sense. Evil is very black and white in D&D, though mostly greyish in EFU. Half Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds, etc. Even the Cannibal Stargazers! I mean people would probably push to outlaw evil deity worship just like half-orcs but there's another level of shit on angering gods/churches/madmen.

[ScruffyMcSmirkalot]

How can there possibly still be any ambiguity about this?

Well, primarily I was addressing the ambiguity that results from how different Forgotten Realms is from EFU. Howland makes his point that Racism is supposed to be real and alive in EFU, and that's wonderful. It's great. It's delicious.

The problem is that this topic will be buried under "General Discussion" posts within a number of months. And anyone else that comes along to this wonderful community will not even think to ask how Racism is handled in EFU, and should they go by using the Forgotten Realms books to base their characters on, their characters will likely be created to act, as Howland said, "as our enlightened selves".

If we go, and take what Howland says here, expand it a bit and apply it as a canon change to the realms, and write it up as a quick guide for new players to- Y'know what, HERE. Discuss how to adapt Howland's thing into a guide for current and future players on Racism. Go.

I likes me some documentation. I have pedantic tendencies, so sue me.

[Prairial Twenty-Two]

No, that's perfectly fine, I agree.

It's the fact that older players are still treating it as a point of contention that surprises me.

[The Old Hack]

It's the fact that older players are still treating it as a point of contention that surprises me.

Eh? What's that? Speak up there young whippersnapper! Young people nowadays... *mutters and grumbles a lot*

More seriously, if an old pedant like me can be that, the prejudice is very real and alive and even otherwise openminded people may have blind spots the size of the Keep. Currently I play Kara and she is fairly OK with anyone who knows how to behave around a town but she is totally prejudiced against wild people with weird cultures. When she learned that Stargazers EAT their dead, she all but ran screaming, and as far as she is concerned, Fury and his friends hang from trees, go ook ook ook and eat bananas when no-one is watching. (No offense! This attitude of hers is all IC, I think Fury is a great character! >.< )

~tOH.

[Cerberus]

Read most posts, skimmed some. Not sure if it's been stated or not so apologies if it has. But~

Most racists are not just racist against one type of other race. They tend to also be a bit pro their race. Look at any of the big racist groups and you'll see the pattern of hate of one race and lack of tolerances towards the rest that aren't the race they are...

A dwarf that is racist against halforcs for instance, is easily acceptable in either EFU or Forgotten Realms. A dwarf that is racist against halforcs while defending a human city and hanging out with humans and petitioning to ban halforcs from said human city is kinda silly to me. IMO, were he a real racist he wouldn't give a crap about Mistlock and if the babies there were eaten. He would care about his race and his domain. I just think it depends on how racism is actually role played that makes the difference. If you're going to play off a races hatreds then you need to play off their racial pride to make that racism actually appreciable.

On the other hand... The poster-boy Drizzt is famous because he has to live with said prejudices against him. If you want to play a halforc paladin of Ilmater, be prepared to be hated and discriminated against.

It's a game that if you're not having fun with one race or class then make another you do have fun with. [shrug]
:???:

[Heavyfog]

BE RACIST IN EFU! Wear your race like a badge of honor.  Get into a duel over said honor, and BTW, kill all halforc scum! ;) My point is simple: Racism is ugly  and adds a boatload of conflict to EFU.  Though I am still in the clutches of Skyrim atm, EFU always needs MORE RACISM!  Two of my most memorable, fun and conflict laden characters were extremely racist.  The first was a Halforc (Garuush Rakhan) that saw himself as the 'perfect' breed and would put a knife in anyone that would say otherwise (even if that person was a Stygian or a Docks gang leader).  The other was a human (Chumbar Swineservant) that hated halforcs and would let anyone within earshot hear that "them things is bad luck" and worse.  He would openly insult halforcs no matter what their good deeds and standing in society.  If this lead to a heroically good halforc dying....GREAT! Because in Chumbar's view, the only good halforc is a dead halforc.  Racism adds meaningful conflict if played right, its awesome and adds alot to the server.

[The Old Hack]

A dwarf that is racist against halforcs while defending a human city and hanging out with humans and petitioning to ban halforcs from said human city is kinda silly to me. IMO, were he a real racist he wouldn't give a crap about Mistlock and if the babies there were eaten.[shrug]
:???:

That is not entirely fair, nor is it true to how prejudices work in RL. There are many examples, historical and present, of people who had to go into exile and nonetheless brought all their prejudices along with them. You might argue that said dwarf should just settle in the Delve, but what if he doesn't like that there is actually Withering (if mild) in there? Or even if there wasn't, he might still choose the human town because it is easier for him to profit from his profession there.

And believe me, I know of many RL examples of this sort of exile taking their prejudices along and pursuing them to their utmost, be it out of conviction or simple spite. We currently have lots of them in Denmark, for example.

~tOH.