"Racism" and "Speciesism" (?)

[Barber]

In light of the current IG conflict, I don't think that is fair.

I'll toss my hat into the ring on the issue, as I suspect the view of my PC is the same as some others.  My character knows that halforcs are trouble making monsters who MAY eat babies.  She also knows the undead DEFINITELY eat babies and if she has to chose between the two...

They have a tendency to carry big axes and be very strong and also smash the undead.

I agree however, that anyone who is taking a "Half orcs are people too! Everyone should be treated the same!" is very silly.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

Savages have their place, and those monsters are best kept either on a leash or outside the walls with the other animals!

But no, on a serious note, I've always been very pleased with how relations between different species and different races of the same species has been carried out on EFU. It's always been fairly tastefully done. Though not involved with the goings-on of this rp I am curious how it will turn out. This is indeed a time for change to shake up the foundation a bit.

[The Old Hack]

Errr? Why is this an issue? Near as I can tell, this is Working As Intended. We have a lot of people with racist attitudes, some more who just don't give a crap and fairly few who are willing to give half-orcs a chance but who tend to get overridden.

I have absolutely no OOC issue with the people who roleplay fantasy racism but on the other hand I don't see the advantage of screaming at the people who roleplay more openminded or tolerant characters. For the love of God, would there even be any interesting conflict on this issue if everyone just AGREED that "Half-Orcs Are Bad And Must Be Cast Out"?

And as to that, racism need not be the same always. A race might tend to hate one race and like another, but why not change that around? I knew an absolutely brilliantly played elf character who had been brought up among dwarves and who hated other elves. I once saw a player group of halflings and gnomes who closed ranks against and distrusted or hated all the 'tootall' races. I myself played a half-elf who utterly despised her elven parentage.

It's fine to be ICly intolerant but for heaven's sake show a little OOC tolerance for other playstyles. It's not a huge problem if someone feels uncomfortable about roleplaying racism, is it?

[The Pathfinder]

Two things:

I've always thought racism in FR was necessary and, if played well, added a lot. I support Balop and the other players and look forward to a rivalry!

My character is an intellectual and he will call bullshit where he sees it, whether that is with people, groups, or Gods. Please don't call me silly, Barber; I have very good reasons which can be FOIG.

[Barber]

I worded it poorly.  It is silly to apply 21st century liberal values to a fantasy game with magic in the psuedo-middle ages.

[LiAlH4]

Racism and speciesism are both in-character traits that one should react to in an in-character manner. It makes perfect sense for individuals from almost any area in Faerun to run half-breeds out of town; just as it makes sense for Sembians to detest and despise elves.

This said there will always be exceptions that defy the common stereotypes of the half-orc, there will always be more enlightened PCs who are geared toward acceptance, and BOTH may face severe stigma merely for being who they are and believing what they believe. Overcoming the widespread xenophobia of a tiny town besieged on all sides is part of the difficulty of playing a character whose mindset is geared toward liberalism.

The important thing to remember is that, ultimately, all these matters belong IC. :)

[TeufelHunden]

The issue is the use of the word Racist and acting as though it is as disgusting as it is today. Such a thing is not even close to out of the norm for the setting and acting as though it is so awful and out of place is silly. "You are just a detestable RACIST" I believe was the exact wording. The use of the terms in the setting is immersion breaking as Howland clearly stated in the beginning and the problem is that those of us who know it doesn't belong in the setting have to cringe and view it every time someone wants to rp their "open minded" PC with current world views and terms.

[The Old Hack]

Errr? Who did this and where? I don't get it and I really hope it wasn't me. I agree with that, this sort of accusation doesn't belong as it carries way too many modern negative implications with it. :(

[The Pathfinder]

Racism is defendable, especially in FR. But it is not true that any contrary view is "21st century liberal". Any thinking person can come up with a ton of reasons why racist hate and discrimination is evil. I am not playing a liberal, I am playing a thinking person in a world where the common man is uneducated and fearful.

I'm fully aware it's an uphill battle. I say bring it on. IG.

Edit: Ahahaha. Lee Alhafor said it way better than I did.

[The Old Hack]

Racism is defendable, especially in FR. But it is not true that any contrary view is "21st century liberal".

Totally agreed, but anything that does give a too strong impression of it is probably not a good thing, especially if it has OOC overtones of the player doing something contemptible rather than the character. Therefore some amount of distance, care and respect for fellow players is necessary.

That being said, once again, let people have opposing views ICly. The respect for viewpoints should hopefully run both ways.

[Veiled]

I would put my thoughts on this like this....

If you do not portray the racism of your race in the setting you are viewed much like a person today who believes in RL that the earth is flat.

The vast majority of people will think you mentally retarded, given all experience and evidence avaliable, indicates you are plain wrong.

I am sure the DM,s would reflect this in any Mayoral election. So the next time there his one perhaps the candidates will need to proclaim their position on such things... If they are of the more accepting nature they may see their support diminish.

[The Old Hack]

The vast majority of people will think you mentally retarded, given all experience and evidence prejudice avaliable, indicates you are plain wrong.

Fixed.

[ScruffyMcSmirkalot]

Oh boy, I love these posts! This post wasn't around when I was here. Let me throw in my millenia-late two coppers too.

To be frank... Howland: You picked the wrong Campaign Setting to base EFU in. Especially the wrong edition, what with all of the whitewashing (or washing away of white males?) that the WotC PC Police have done with the product, and TSR before them. Forgotten Realms has generally held the trappings of a medieval/renaissance world, and then imbued them with, as the term that it seems we're using, "21st century ideals on equality". Racism and Sexism within the "civilized races" (more on that later), in terms of in-character, are rather minimal in the Forgotten Realms. They are rarely, if ever, used as driving forces of plot development.

You'll find plenty of female adventurers and women in power in Forgotten Realms, with relatively equivalent treatment, and landowning at that. It's also true that you can find almost any of the core races in any of the major cities. Sure, you may find those races in lesser numbers, but you won't find it being written that they'll be confined to specific ghettos in the city, needing permission to leave or do business with others. You don't read that there's often lynch mobs for getting rid of all of a certain race in these towns and cities.

Further, think of the pictures you've seen of your typical adventuring party in Forgotten Realms. Oh, I'm sure it will be an ensemble of Tolkienesque proportions, with your dwarf, elf, halfling, and human. Heck, since 2nd edition, half-orc became a playable race. And in most non-core Forgotten Realms products, they'll promote a more diverse group than that, what with all the genesai and subraces. I mean, we're talking about a campaign setting where the posterboy is a freaking DROW, thanks to R.A. Salvatore.

Now, I say that is within the "civilized" races. This is because of the dichotomy that exists (or existed) between "Good Aligned Player Characters", and "Evil Monsters". In first edition, it was real easy to separate "Monsters" from the "civilized" races. Killing a monster (infidel) was a good deed, and the more you killed, the better person you were. In 2nd edition, it was still rather easy to still tell the difference between the "Civilized Races" and "Monsters", but it was becoming murky, with the introduction of Half-orc as a playable race. PCs were still primarily good, and they went out to do good deeds, but killing monsters wasn't the end all of doing good deeds, it was merely the result of foiling Team Evil's plan. With 3rd edition, it became REAL murky, as tons of playable monster races were introduced, and adventuring parties weren't always focused on being the crusaders of Good anymore, especially as the Anti-Hero became more popular. This reflects the continued injections and evolution of "21st century ideals on equality" being infused into the setting as time went on.

I suppose to really follow through on this debate, you'd have to revive the ever-enjoyed alignment debates, on good and evil deeds, and races/magic/items/etc. that are intrinsically evil, as they're closely related.

Anyhow, muddled history trip over. I myself enjoy a good rousing game of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, so I can enjoy slaying the heathens without any issues of moral complexity. I could say more, but I think it's easier to sum it up with a TL;DR...

[SIZE="5"]TL;DR:[/SIZE]

Forgotten Realms has minimal reference of racism, sexism, and generally is injected with "21st century ideals on equality". It's generally Politically Correct, and made for all ages.

EFU encourages racism (but not Sexism?... probably because you guys don't want a sausagefest.) as a means for promoting conflict, as it makes a great motivating factor. Further, it makes sense that a village of survivors from an undead menace would be racist, especially if most of those villagers are "uneducated" and frightened for their lives.

... Yet we're supposed to draw character backgrounds, religions, and concepts from Forgotten Realms.

Solution:

How about we finish this discussion, and figure out how much racism we want in EFU, and then take this over to the player compendium, discuss how to blanket this, in general terms, over Forgotten Realms, and CANONIZE it as a change to the setting, stickied in New Player Information or in the Player Compendium forums. This way, there needn't be any future confusion on this issue. At the end of the day, I think this is where the problem stems from... Well, apart from our own "enlightened" mentalities, anyway.

If you can kill Finder Wyvernspur, changing the beliefs of the majority of the people in Forgotten Realms shouldn't be too hard to canonize at all.

Edit: Attempts at this to be done HERE.

[Veiled]

In FR the prejudice is based upon real experience and real evidence.

[Valo56]

People can pretend that half-orcs aren't a widely chaotic and violent bunch. People can believe that all races are equal. People can try and be friends with any drow claiming to be a CG rebel. They can think that big dumb giant just wants to be your friend.

Those people will get killed eventually for being too trusting. Race is more than a stat adjustment in FR, and one can often look at a non-human and make general assumptions.

The common man and woman in FR is a superstitious lot. Consider all that has happened in the 1300's DR in the Forgotten Realms. Lots of catastrophe. It's been nonstop, almost. It isn't going to make them more trusting, it's going to make everything seem more dangerous. Mages casting spells in the street, horned freaks offering candy to your children, drow prancing about claiming to be good guys, etc.

It's the duty of players to react accordingly to these things, and of DM's to make the populace react accordingly. On EfU, this has not been a problem. Racism and even sexism has been here at enough of a level that people aren't being driven away or offended, nor is it the 21st century ideology. In PnP games and other servers, the same can't be said, and it's because people aren't willing to step on each others' toes to see things done proper. OOC courtesy often goes to far.

Your choices, IC and OOC, have consequences, and that includes what you chose for your race and build.