"Racism" and "Speciesism" (?)

[Mentau]

Racism is an intelligent stance in Forgotten Realms.
 
In real life, the different races of people are so genetically similar in almost every way that arguing that there's a substantial difference between the races is dumb.
 
In Forgotten Realms, the different races are very different.  To their core.  Dwarves are dwarves.  Elves are elves.  Orcs are orcs.  A character would have to be a total moron to think that an elf could be the best metalsmith in Faerun, or that a dwarf could flit about from tree to tree.

I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is with characters who just passionately hate a certain race, refuse to quest with them, refuse to share their loot with them, keep insulting them etc...
 
Perhaps if people used other words than 'racist' and 'racism' we wouldn't see these threads pop on the forum?

[Big Orc Man]

I don't understand why that's a problem.

It'd be nice to see more racial friction and hatred.

The other races don't exist just to give you stat and ability modifiers - they should be entirely different races.

[Mira]

refuse to share their loot with them,

This is really the only issue I see here. If you want to play a racist pc that's fine, but don't go on a quest with someone and then refuse to share. Regardless of the reason, it's OOCly uncool to deny someone a share of the spoils, or screw them over by leaving them the garbage and then thinly justifying it by saying your PC is racist.

If your PC is really that racist, you should have bowed out of the quest to begin with.

[Mentau]

I don't understand why that's a problem.
 
It'd be nice to see more racial friction and hatred.
 
The other races don't exist just to give you stat and ability modifiers - they should be entirely different races.

It's only a problem if you play this crazy racist guy who refuse to breath the same air as Dwarves or Elves, yet expect to be popular and loved by all. It's fine to acknowledge that Elves make poor miners, everyone would agree with that, no problem. But to want to kill them on sight... Makes no sense for such a hater to not be shunned by the majority in a world like Forgotten Realms where the different races live togueter and adventure togueter all the time, from Baldur's gate to Arabel...

[Barbarus Kole]

Not really true, racial tension is a constant struggle in FR. Baldur's Gate and Arabel are both 99% humans, while Elven and Dwarven cities are almost entirely that race. There are some cities where different races live side by side, but it's a rarity, not the norm. Most races would feel a massive sense of otherness towards other races, as they are unarguably, in terms of outlook, alignment and culture entirely different.

[Gotham]

Like I said, Myth Drannor was considered the pinnacle of racial equality. Ultimately racism still played a large part in it's collapse though.

[Valo56]

If you're playing a character who goes around killing elves because they're elves, then your problem isn't that you hate elves, it's that you're just going around killing PC's. But giving non-humans (or humans, or any particular race) a hard time, or even going out of your way to give them a beating and mug them, is perfectly acceptable. I would expect a fair amount of hatred between half-orcs and dwarves, even if it isn't violent, but wouldn't be at all surprised if it turned violent.

And no one should ever expect to be popular and loved by all.

[Howlando]

As I'm sure I explained somewhere early on in the thread playing concepts that incorporate prejudice to some degree or another of different "species"/races (i.e. disliking halfling, disliking dwarves, whatever) is a good thing.

... but the real question I have is why threads of this kind tend to generate so much discussion when other, seemingly more relevant topics don't!

[granny]

... but the real question I have is why threads of this kind tend to generate so much discussion when other, seemingly more relevant topics don't!

If I'm allowed to get into the mess, I think it's due to the amazing feeling that it is to get in touch with different cultures and to the difficulty it is to extrapolate your own.

What we do in this kind of game is to experience and try to live something that might be entirely different from from our day-to-day activities.

And we struggle A LOT to understand cultural point of views that differ from ours. It is challenging, it is hard, many times frustrating and not rarely rewarding.

I would like to see some insights on the Player Compendium Forums about this kind of subject. I know that most races got already some descriptions about how they interact with others. Although, it seems clear to me that we are in need of more insights about this difficult kind of relation.

[Aethereal]

The revival of this thread seems somewhat unnecessary and extreme.

Especially when the issue is as simple as "don't use the word 'racist' or 'racism' in-game," because it is a concept that does not exist in the setting and leads to breaking immersion of some players.

All other discussion is simply instructive, i.e. the races are clearly defined species - due to the nature of the fiction necessitating this construct that is inherently only the super-imposing of very specific anthropological traits onto a single imaginary 'race' - and as such the thought that one can be unfairly judging a race on its capabilities (racism) is completely null and void because this FICTION requires concrete and objective species differentiation as part of the suspension of disbelief in creating the alternate reality that is Forgotten Realms / EFU.

To conclude. Don't say 'racist'/'racism' in-game. That concept does not exist - abolish it from your brains when you EFU.

[Mass Transit]

I'm going to bump this, as I am watching people try and defend monsters as if they could repent and not be evil. As the original post of howland, try to keep our enlightened mindset out of the game, monsters are monsters, monsters are evil, they aren't supposed to be well liked or defended by goodly people.

[ThatDamnCat]

Idealists will be idealists, Transit. If someone in game, in character, thinks that's the good thing to do, then I don't see why It has to renter the realm of ooc. Sure, they're stupid and it's probably going to get them killed. But, I don't see how it's immersion breaking for an idealist, ESPECIALLY someone who manages to be an idealist in a setting like this one, might be a LITTLE bit delusional :P

[Dillusionist]

To be honest, I think its more the responsibility of monsters to be monstrous than for idealists NOT to be idealists. One of the most attractive things about EFU is how good and chaotic idealists, who usually skirt by easily in most D&D and NWN worlds, end up fighting an up-hill battle against the scumlords and tyrants when they stick to their principles.

"Friendly" goblins and kobolds should be snacking on babies while their ardent protectors' backs are turned to prove them wrong!

[Doc-Holiday]

Just to clarify Mass Transit's comment which came because of an in-game argument about faiths that ran into, what I think are, OOC and IC misunderstandings of the principals behind a particular set of beliefs which are being misconstrued as OOC on the part of those playing the opposing side.



Ilmateri belief is that Ilmater offers forgiveness to any creature or deity, no matter how evil they have been... IF

[INDENT]Now let me pause there and remind folks that the Evil alignment for a race is a representation of their actions and inclinations. It is the norm, but not an iron clad statement for there are exceptions to every rule that prove that rule true.[/INDENT]

IF.... they repent (turn away from, change their mind on the nature of their past behavior)and seek penance (perform actions of contrition and reparation for their past evil), committing themselves to doing Good.

The result of this kind of forgiveness would be reformed and good creatures and deities. It is a hopefulness and faith in the supreme power of Goodness that even an evil creature, should it turn away from evil, can be accepted.

By self-sacrificially taking suffering onto himself, Ilmater offers in place his healing. This is an act of mercy (unmerited favor) and compassion (empathy and deep concern for another that moves one to action) that is intended to produce strength of spirit in the penitent. To the wicked, this kind of undeserved sacrifice is supposed to produce a conviction of their evil as their selfish actions are contrasted by true selflessness that produces healing and by that convition they are brought to repentance and turn from evil to good. To continue in evil, is to heap suffering on a good and benevolent deity condemns that creature to a greater punishment for such an evil action.


Now.. this does not mean that Ilmateri think or believe that -ALL- will repent, but only that they hope that SOME will, and they make provision for it.

It is perfectly normal for a devout Ilmateri to hope and desire to see evil creatures repent from their evil. But they will also move to defend others and put down evil creatures that do not turn away from evil. They are simply more patient and introspective than a lot of other faiths when it comes to bloodshed.

It is not OOC for an Ilmateri to consider the merits of a creatures actions and words over the creatures race when opportunity is afforded. And it is most certainly IC for them to advocate that belief and enlightenment to others.

Mikael has helped wipe out a lot of goblins and kobolds.... but an opportunity was given where one kobold child was found and Mikael tried to save it, because it was a child (vulnerable and unable to defend itself and begging for mercy). There was an opportunity for redemption and a new life for it, this created conflict in the party and the kobold was stabbed ("for it's own good" apparently) and it ran away to plot death for all.

[Zango_Unchained]

There will never be a Drizzt in efu, this server highly dislikes such tropes as elmainster, or, un-evil /clearly/ evil races. Such as neutral duegar or drow, its just not going to happen.

On the mark of an Ilimatri, using the above example they wiped out kobolds and goblins without batting an eye and then spared the child. People don't play children pcs, and any drow you encounter for meaningful rp should not be treated with anything less then hatred and fear as the subrace demands. Unless special circumstances apply with your rp.

-Outcast working with other outcasts
-Enslave
-ect, ect..

My bottom line for subraces in my eyes,
If its different commoners will hate it
If its very different talking physical abnormalities you are KOS
If it has a reputation of evil its evil
There are no "Nice" evil subraces.