DM Quest Spice

[Cluckyx]

Ok, so. Interesting posts.

We've had threads like this is the past and the mantra is roughly the same and it's something that I have always had trouble appreciating a lot of the mindsets that lead to these trains of thought. I won't repeat a lot of what has been said already, but I do feel that I need to say something, so I have focused instead on certain paragraphs that have... stood out to me in particular. Please note replies are not to the specific poster in general they are just examples of certain things that twigged in my mind.

I'm fine with having to fight intelligently when a DM is around. I love the extra flare of fighting off kamakaze goblins and assassins when I just expected your standard granary run. However, there is absolutely nothing intelligent in a battle resting on the difference between a DM's endless supply of potions with the players' relatively limited supply....

You talk as if the DMs are your opponents, like people on opposite ends of a table playing Chess or Yu-gi-Oh or whatever you kids play today.  We're not out to "win" or "beat the other side"We're out to make the quest as exciting as possible, sometimes that means intrigue, sometimes that means white knuckle OH GOD I AM GOING TO DIE. To me, personally it feels like the DMs are just another mob. Those stone lizards were hard as fuck, but they didn't drop enough loot. Blaaaaargh.
 Those DMs were hard as fuck, but they didn't drop enought loot BLAAAAARGH.

especially when the reward is an extra potion or two, a pat on the back, and the boredom of having to reorganize your pack.

What about the part where you just got a white knuckle OH GOD I AM GOING TO DIE rush and a break from the standard quest that you may have done 20 times over. If you can only look at rewards in terms of the loot, XP, gold triangle, IMO that's actually quite a shame. Of course, maybe you WANTED the same quest as you did last time, maybe the fact that it was a break from the norm was what pissed you off in such a manner. What always drew me to NWN in the first place was the uncertainty in the quests, the fact that there were human beings behind the steering wheel instead of mindless computers who would tailor the reward to the risk. Of course, for those that DON'T want that, there are systems that do a much better job of it that us

The main reason that I get disappointed with a death/no reward situation is that it often times pushes me back to the same stage that I was at days ago.

It does? It does if you only consider your character in terms of his loot and XP and nothing else, ignoring how your character will have developed over the hardships they have faced over the last few days and relationships they will have forged with other characters on the server to boot.
 If all that is irrelevant to you and the only thing showing up on your radar is your ability to fuck shit up. You should really consider what you're doing on a Self proclaimed Hardcore PW Story Server when there are plenty of Action servers where you can level faster, level higher and there's no risk of shit like this happening at all.

Thing to remember is, it's still just a game.  No one wins all the time, just have fun.

My final question is this. What IS winning? How do you WIN EfU? Is it by having the most gold? Having the best Loot? Being the Highest Level? Is it by having the most PvP kills?

Can you really WIN EfU? No.

And so if you can't WIN, how can you LOSE?

There is no Winning or Losing, there is only the story that your character writes as you play him/her. If that story includes bitter defeat from time to time? Fuck it, it's just another chapter. If you planned for your character to become a bad ass paladin and he fell, and ended up being some fucked up crime lord. would you consider that losing? Or, is it just characters progressing as they will always progress?

Ok I'm ranting now. Peace out,

[Nightshadow]

No one can win EfU because someone already won, so we lost.

[03:32]Dakarai did indeed win, with more than twice the number of kills as any other PC or NPC

I'm sorry, I just had to. :P

[Haromaro]

Actually, I completely agree with you about the incredible satisfaction you can get out of those white knuckle moments. I eluded to this slightly in my post and in previous "drafts" of it I went into the story extensively, but there was one recent instance of DM spice were my character died and I actually enjoyed watching him be sent to the Fugue. It was a granary quest with Hagar, Shaye, and (I think?) Seanzie's druid where, after the scripted quest was over, we were attacked from behind by goblin kamakazes and assassins.

We didn't have a lot of supplies and most of us were susceptible to the assassin's paralysis. There was a moment where my character was stunned by an assassin and he went after my PC with the righteous fury of every mistreated goblin. Everyone crowded around the goblin and tried to smack him before I went down and there was this brief span of a few seconds where I had only a couple of hit points left and the goblin was near death, and I realize that if Hagar didn't kill it with the next swing I was probably gone. Lo and behold, the goblin took my PC down and it was actually an incredibly satisfying experience.

I enjoy that feeling -- that adrenaline rush that most games can't come close to having you feel. That's one of the many great things that makes EfU a server that I'll probably always come back to. The reason I made my post was because, yes, as of late, I did feel that some of the spice felt like the wheel of fate was turning and it was the spicing DM versus the party of players, rather than the usual, mutual sharing of entertainment. I love not being able to expect what's around the next corner and I love the satisfaction of overcoming the challenges that DM's put forth. My post was to point out the certain frustrations that I and, perhaps, other people encounter when we get the feeling that it is indeed a battle between us and the DM's.

I'm trying not to be long-winded without sounding like an asshole, but I don't think it's working out particularly well.

[Howlando]

No one can win EfU because someone already won, so we lost.



I'm sorry, I just had to. :P

That is a quote taken out of context in reference to a an IRC discussion probably years ago. The question was which PC was responsible for the most mayhem in a very specific large battle that occurred quite a long time ago. No disrespect to Dakarai or the player, but he didn't even have a particularly all-time high body-count (nor it that something I would consider WINNING efu).

This is off topic but I feel like it's important to clarify this. If you really want to get into what characters I thought accomplished something significant as to approach "winning" EFU that might be an interesting discussion for another thread, as there have been some accomplishments that PCs have made that were truly impressive.

[Nightshadow]

It was a joke, is all. Truthfully I never played with Dakarai.. but anyway. All our characters will die a painful death at some point. No one from EfU lived through all of EfU:A, even, by my reckoning. Though a few may have escaped back to Faerun. Every character we make will die, so you've got to go out and try and make whatever it is you die trying to do worthwhile, fun and interesting.. Like Leged! But now we're getting even more off topic. *cough*

[FabulousRainbow]

I like pie.

[Jayde Moon]

I like pie.

Seriously, it took me a while to truly come to grips with some of the ways EfU can work.

When I first started in earnest, I was enthralled by the setting and the possibilities of the intense dynamic of what was going on.

But when those possibilities became realities, a became somewhat disgruntled and upset.  My first time in a 'random' PvP altercation, the first time I experienced 'pointless' spice, one time when a DM 'just killed' my PC... A lot of it came from expectations based on a previous community I was a part of where there was very seldom any PvP, no static content to spice, and DMs were there simply to glad hand your PC and push their story along.

In time, I have decided that for me the way EfU works is pure genius, that story and plot are King, and that certain things happen for a reason that may not be readily apparent right away.

To add to one of my above examples, when the DM 'killed' my PC, I vented my frustration a bit to another player and probably in public.  It wasn't an hour later I was eating my words when it turned out that the DM had some very specific (and very cool) plans for us and that from his perspective the death was NOT bullshit, but rather the natural course of action for what was occurring.  Talk about a turning point.

Yes, sometimes things are going to be very difficult and sometimes you will find frustrations.  Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.  Regardless, your attitude is going to be one of this largest factors in determining is you had fun in the end, or if it was all just a long set of frustrations.

Stick to it, shine on you crazy diamond, live life to the fullest, and when DMs give you lemons... make lemonade.

Also... I like my pie spiced.

[AClockworkMelon]

Just got hit with *heavy* spice. Though two of our team died it really got my heart pumping!

It may have been the lag, but at times it seemed as if the DM was spawning them right on top of us, as in within thirty feet or so. That was kind of jarring but otherwise it was fun. :)

[Tarnished_Tulip]

I like spice that does not encompass risk of death... I'll give an example.

During the harpies, we were spiced with an ENORMOUS amount of extra spawn.... as in, there was no room to move, so to speak. We waded through all of that, but it took so much time most of the buffs cast at the beginning were either dispelled, or were in the process of fading. We hit the final level, and encounter a buffed goblin. This was a suitor to the harpy queen (i am fairly certain) and he would have none of our friendly gifts of blade and spell to her. So, he charged us and blew us away rather swiftly... HOWEVER the DM set the goblin to stun (SD) rather than kill. Which, when the rest of us ran off, and later returned to find charmed partymembers coming AT US, it took the quest to a whole new level.

So this is my challenge to you guys topside..

Set goblins to stun

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

I like spice that does not encompass risk of death...

:(  That's not right though.  Without the risk of death, EfU is nothing more than a meaningless procession up to high levels.  For any success to be worth it, you have to have beaten the odds, and survived situations which were anything BUT a certainty.

The risk of death has to be there, always, or EfU is not as special a game as it can be.

[Cluckyx]

:(  That's not right though.  Without the risk of death, EfU is nothing more than a meaningless procession up to high levels.  For any success to be worth it, you have to have beaten the odds, and survived situations which were anything BUT a certainty.

The risk of death has to be there, always, or EfU is not as special a game as it can be.

It's like the difference between playing poker for fun and playing Poker for real money.

Shit's just more intense dawg.

[Egon the Monkey]

Yup, it's why a tough quest is so much more exciting, and a feeling I only otherwise get in Minecraft, where you can't just reload the game either. However, that very feeling of gambling the time and achievements of a PC are what make it all the more jarring when you've just thrown everything you've got into beating a horde of uber NPCs that damn near killed your char and end up with nothing out of it to help you survive the next danger. To continue Cluckyx's analogy, it's like playing poker for real money against a guy who's matching your own big bet. You beat his hand, but your opponent proceeds to eat his money rather than hand it over when he folds. The persistence of this thread does seem like an indication that spice has kicked up massively lately whereas reward for it has dropped a lot.

 The problem with varying between spice that drains PCs and stuff that rewards them is it really hurts the players that aren't always powergaming and therefore able to recover and then be there for the rewarding stuff. It's a disincentive to take risks, because you know it's unlikely that they'll pay off in any way. When the risk is close to the reward, players want to rock out  and do the dangerous things because they know if they aim high, they've a chance at the good stuff, be it DM loot, powerful supplies or attention. When it's not, pulling out all the stops just means a week's worth of questing to go and gear up or get your levels back.

Few players complain at being left out of pocket or level if the result was some memorable and interesting RP or plot advancement. If your PC dies or burns a lot of stuff but gets to say he saved Mistlocke or defeated a major enemy of his faction, that's a reward in itself. The spider invasion recently was a very poor IC reward for most PCs, but the story aspect of it was great and PCs could always flee or stay back. The end XP was nice and it's the sort of thing that takes the edge off losses. You had a choice and it didn't feel personal.  However, when it looks like a DM's decided to challenge you personally with spice and the result of using everything down to the kitchen sink is "You get to live", it leaves a bad taste. You wonder why you didn't turn tail at the first sign of spice, rather than face the challenge. You feel like the DM is testing how much it takes to break your PC, rather than trying to be entertaining or tell a story.

[Mort]

Few players complain at being left a bit down in supplies if the result  was some memorable and interesting RP or plot advancement. There's more  rewards than mere Loot and XP. However, when it looks like a DM's  decided to challenge you and liven up a quest or something and the  result of using everything down to the kitchen sink is "You get to  live", it leaves a bad taste. You wonder why you didn't just turn tail  at the first sign of spice, rather than face the challenge.

Well, you can. But I'd bring you the concept of delayed gratification. If you rock out a challenge, and do not receive an instant gratification of xp/loot/pat on the back. Be stoic. These things happen, and they are a good judge of character.

Your attitude is extremely important. Making forum posts to subtletly complain or talking to your buddies how so and so DM is after YOU is a great way to ensure you do not receive anything!

I know I've ran events in the past and went : "Wow, these guys really struggled, and didn't complain. The reward seemed light. Maybe I should throw them a custom quest, in a few days when I'll have time, for so and so and design loot custom to them", only to go look in the logs to remind me who went and see they had been bitching in tells the whole time about how I was trying to kill them -- along with many other paranoid fantasies.

Did I feel any sympathy for them at that point? None.

Did I want to waste 5 hours of my life designing loot/quest/story centered around them? Hell no.

So, yes. Maybe you wont be rewarded IMMEDIATELY for spice, but dont despair! Keep up the good attitude and you'll see other forms of reward -- That's what most people understand that having a good relation is its own reward and not worth bitching over 250xp more, a few potions, or an alignment shift of 3 evil points, and that there might be other benefits that are intangible and that you do not immediately notice when you travel a tough time and keep your cool.

[HaveLuteWillTravel]

What Mort says above has been my experience in most cases. Sometimes you come out behind supply-wise, far behind. The reward might be coming another day, and typically if you just keep RPing the situation, and keep it all IC, you wind up seeing it.

I think the key here is, sure people get a bit frustrated, frustration is natural. But I have yet to ever have one of these set backs damage my character in any real way, beyond the temporary, rather easily fixed things. Progression isn't a straight, steady line. It's forward, backward, a little further forward, a sharp drop back, etc.. That's normal, and it should be embraced, because anything else becomes predictable, and the beauty of this kind of roleplay is its unpredictability.

[chezcaliente]

Well, you can. But I'd bring you the concept of delayed gratification.
...
So, yes. Maybe you wont be rewarded IMMEDIATELY for spice, but dont despair! Keep up the good attitude and you'll see other forms of reward -- That's what most people understand that having a good relation is its own reward and not worth bitching over 250xp more, a few potions, or an alignment shift of 3 evil points, and that there might be other benefits that are intangible and that you do not immediately notice when you travel a tough time and keep your cool.

I totally understand the DMs take on this, but this is why I recommend DMs always give players an OOC message at the end of some spice or events where PCs have been left generally worse off. A quick "well done! I know you're worse off right now, but kudos for sticking it out. Hopefully will lead to more fun stuff in the future." Prevents any short-term dissatisfaction players might be feeling, and keeps ooc communication lines open.

That said, the only problem with this is for players who are more casual for various reasons, who may not feel like they will ever see the long term rewards that more regular players might see. While I don't think DMs should stop doing what they do, I think recognition that not everyone wants the same thing from the game is necessary.

Saying to people something along the lines of "suck it up" is not particularly helpful. I don't think the DMs are saying that at all (I find you guys pretty courteous generally), but there are some players that sometimes respond this way.  If another player ooc-ly bows out of a quest or event (even if their PC would normally feel compelled to do it), we should all respect that sometimes OOC feelings need to take priority over staying in-character in order for us all to keep enjoying the game together.