Trials - Executions

[Warren Oates]

I put "pay" in quotes because some people seems to think that going through the trial is "punishment". Why not to see it as opportunity to get ending for the character?

[12 Hatch]

I think that's partially because, often, the result seems to be a foregone conclusion, so the trial is really just a massive speed-bump that prevents you from getting the closure required to move on to the next character.

[Laughing Octopus]

So you're character's dead, he's just waiting on the paperwork. Why not start your new character while sitting in death row? It'd give you something to do.

[Disco]

I kinda agree on this.

[VanillaPudding]

As the consistent player of a "Villain" I can say that there were time when I would have REALLY liked to continue on with a different angle. Maybe my badass thief wouldn't be opposed to double crossing everyone in the docks, or maybe my blood thirsty cleric would bring a war on the docks / natives without ever caring to mention your name or your mercy because it was fitting and still rather IC.

I might be the minority, but I don't always think that 15 different assault charges (Read, not far off from a drunk in a tavern who fights weekly) warrant a public beheading and execution atop the ziggarut. I also don't think that it should always be so RED vs BLUE in terms of punishment.

BOM basically cleared it up best when he stated that a scripted solution is probably needed, but I favor it heavily since it offers some PCs the chance to move forward with their goals from a different angle that they simply didn't have or withdrew from previously. We have Mythalars, scrying, and countless other magical aids at our disposal, let's get some tracking collars in for criminal slaves and call it "okay" for the sake of increasing the ever shortening lifespan of our lesser evils.

[EfUA_undercover]

Use irc to coordinate your trial/execution/what have you and if you want to play something else while waiting nothing stops you from it. You just have to log in for the time the trial and/or execution takes and not spend all your day in a cell. If that bothers you, because it isn't something you want to spend any time on you should have considered that before making a criminal. Being trialed/executed, if you want it or not, is as much a part of your characters story as is being ganked/robbed for the ones who were poor enough to cross your way.

Of course  from an ooc-perspective having a character ended by an  execution is not really different from being ganked in a backalley, but  it is what you asked for. Both you and your character knew the laws and  the way things are handled in this setting. If you play a criminal you  will have to deal with the consequences sooner or later.

To add my two cents to other points raised here: If you are unsatisfied with the ic laws that are used to bring judgement for ic actions you should make a Stygian/Patrician/or whatever next and strife to change them. Making a ooc suggestion to change ic laws, that have been used for years now, will likely not achieve anything.

[Paha]

I believe that kind approach is very good idea - yet, those dozen different charges come from killing, mutilating, stealing, causing some rather serious problem for the side that captures the perpetrator - they usually are there for some manner of a reason. Naturally for some absurd reason folks may have IC motivations to set up a sham of a trial or something else, but that's usually not the case.

The thing is, if you walk out of it just like that, it simply means these lesser evils can do what they want without the fear of the end. Which usually is the case anyway, as in my eyes many of the lesser evil have taken the stand that they are prepared for the death in player level, and risk it constantly when they make their choises.

It usually leads to kill and be killed - situations, and sometimes it simply is that an individual takes a hit on an opponent far more powerful than himself. (In el groso's case here a charge of piracy on some serious institution that has a lot to say in matters of colony)

In general it does not take ages to deal with matters, but in rare occasion it happens with no DM's about, or timezone issues between involved parties. It just happens and it's a side we usually have to deal with.

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

Trial's shouldn't be foregone conclusions.  PC's should be making every effort to keep the story going.

For instance, Jonny Villain is level 5-6, and obviously low level as he has only existed a week.  He's started his racketeering business, and is starting to incur the ire of the powers that be.  He does something that could arguably be considered a capital crime.

Should the Dominion PC's :

1)  Ignore the knowledge that he is lower level/less supplied and go -out of their way- to PvP him with a view to a sham trial where he will be executed anyway?

2)  Let the story build further, plant spies/infiltrators to learn more about what he's doing, but essentially let him grow in stature so that the eventual reckoning is all the sweeter later on?

Answer?  There is no right or wrong answer, really, it's a subjective question.  Ultimately, it's nice to show people a bit of OOC courtesy and do things with a bit of class, but EfU has always been fairly hardcore when it comes to its player versus player, and there's a certain amount of acceptance that shit happens, and executions, subduals, and FD's come with the territory of playing a proactive PC.

[Talir]

In most cases, any capital crimes would be resolved in a day. The Dominion's not had a trial for months now, most is settled then and there depending on what manner of crimes you have committed.

In some cases and depending on the nature of crime, there may be a way out - no matter which 'law' you are judged by.

I do agree that it should not go days before a verdict is reached.

[Egon the Monkey]

I'd say it would be better if PCs that wanted to argue their way out of a conviction had the chance to more often.

The last time I played a fast-talking crook, our faction ended up outlawed for running from the law when unusually, we were innocent.  Even though we'd set up the situation to force our attackers to throw the first punch in earshot of a Stygian NPC, we got railroaded to Trial by Combat vs a much higher lvl PC.

[TeufelHunden]

I think a lot of what goes on in pvp is that people believe that criminal pcs should not FD people and that when criminal pcs are caught they should immediatly be brought to justice. For instance when myself and VP find some random person in the ruins and we beat them up we just subdual them and take a few potions and a little gold and send them on their way. Rarely do we ever resort to FDing them unless they have numerous times been a huge problem for us I.E betrayal and the like. However, and I realise its okay to kill monster pcs and I wouldn't fault someone for doing so- If someone were to win against myself and VP we would be brought to trial or just killed on the spot.
It seems as though a double standard of OOC courtesy has been established in which law PCs I.E Order and Stygians are able to FD wantonly because it is their job to bring people to justice and Criminals are complete assholes for FDing someone ever. I agree with the others on ways to not kill criminals for smaller crimes and the like and would like to see a lot more of my PCs being used as informants and what not in exchange for their life instead of getting their heads lopped off for not killing Johnny Stygian when I had the chance. I will however continue to go on with my current views on pvp in which I will keep you alive so that when you get more potions I can take those too ;)

[Paha]

I like to remind people, that in more than half of the cases I've seen options have been offered to the accused, and people have even been trying to search for reason to free them out of that player-side courtesy.

Folks tend to forget that they usually are caught for a reason, and sometimes even slip things that screw them over even deeper - not to mention when they have nearly always been offered options, redemtion, to turn the coat and work for ones accusers or beg them for their life - people always refuse.

There are those few moments when the small evil folk get killed fast and swiftly, but as people keep speaking of red vs blue setting, I like to think it's especially much more complicated. There are individuals with hidden agenda, greedy purposes to set someone in blame and have them vanish, some follow the rules to the letter with the ideal of "Not guilty until proven otherwise", because they could get screwed for making selfish mistakes on their own side.

These matters are never as simple as they are made to sound. If you act against some law/order that insitution attempts to hold, you got to recognise that you are not playing a fair game, and your opponents may not play it either. It might just seem like it, and on other times it's exactly that, but the criminal gives no other choise.

I agree on finding multiple options. Yet, before this people need to accept that when they go against laws that are rather openly presented and are often aware they are doing something wrong - they need to be prepared to face even most horrid consequences, or begin acting in more creative ways and ensuring they never cross the line of serious consequences, and hope they will not get screwed over by their evil twin in the other side of law-enforcement.

Someone will always have to be on the losing side. One way, or another. The depth of that loss just varies. Evil guy may be screwed over by another evil - whom just acts in different manner.

[TeufelHunden]

I think what a lot of us on the evil side are trying to say is that we leave people alive not because it's IC what we would do but because it would be OOC courteous. It perpetuates the story and we like that, but a lot of people do not appreciate the gesture or recognize that we do not do it to troll or grief you- we do it because it will be more fun for you to be alive and oppose us at some point. For instance in the last week and a half two of my evil characters were FDed in first time conflict between other pcs in which noone should have been killed. It just goes along with the PCs are not pumpkins idea and that smashing someone just because you can isn't always tasteful or fun. Its not against the rules it's just someone not wanting enemies or fearing retribution. It's just the life we live as criminals I guess :p. Just know if you're the lawman or the guy getting mugged we aren't going to kill you right away and atleast think about it a little before you are about kill us, that's all I ask. Killing someone for assaulting you on a server like this is pretty rash, yah know?

[The Old Hack]

Personally I like the idea of having the authorities have the option of handing out lesser sentences so as not to make every trial just a prelude to execution. If you view the Trenadan Code as a guideline to maximum sentences rather than mandatory sentences, this becomes possible. Then the judge says, "Okay, persistent criminal conduct, muggings, violation of exile... but it doesn't rate the death sentence. Ten lashes, well laid on, then run the bum out!"

The game is full of whips anyway. Let's see them used! >.>

...or for a more humane alternative, "You're sentenced to public labour." Insert chore here like chopping down trees for a time (RPed for an hour, or possibly RPing skiving off from treecutting for an hour). During this 'public labour' the character is stuck with some sort of ball and chain item that reduces her/his movement and it is taken off when complete.

Criminals who have confessed and are cooperating might be given some sort of actual quest to complete. Like, carrying a load of grain from Blackhearth to the Dominion or something. (Or lumber, if the judge doesn't feel the penitent can be trusted with grain.)

Having PC magistrates might be an idea, yes. A position separate from the law enforcement itself is after all a way of checking the power of the watchmen and avoiding stuff like someone arresting some person they don't like and impose a fine just to harass them. (This is meant as an IC point of view from someone living in a world where the cops aren't fully trusted. It spreads the power around a bit and maybe, just maybe makes things a bit more fair.)

~tOH.

[Damien]

word, i hear the farmland project currently requires abled hands