Clerics

[Yalta]

I'm an avid cleric player and they aren't underpowered.
 
For me they are pretty much balanced, if Consecration did something useful/interesting not requiring a DM they would be up there with our Wizard Overlords.
 
Couple of points to consider.

• They have access to class unique and particularly useful spells e.g. Negative Plane Protection, Spell Resistance (druids as well), Divine Favour and Hammer of Gods.
• They get higher spell slots but without the need for max'd stats e.g. a 16 wisdom cleric still gets 2 x Circle 5 slots at lvl 9, nice.
• Some domains are excellent and they have a perk that is arguably one of the most mechanically effect available.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Yalta wizards get 2 slots also, you just need to have a specific  school selected. With clerics you need to have domains selected, which is mandatory. Much like the wizard extra spell slots being for spells from the school of focus, the clerical extra spell slots were designed to be used for domain spells.

Clerics are fairly powerful. However they're not ~more~ powerful than a fighter or a barbarian and what little power they do have can be taken away or reduced substantially if they make the wrong choices. Unlike the fighter or the barbarian.

Some people just don't like feeling stressed to roleplay portray everything that comes with being a cleric. Cleric just isn't enticing enough. That said I don't think buffing it would help. The best class in the game is paladin after all and look how many of those we have <_<

[Egon the Monkey]

Anything other than a melee cleric is certainly possible, generally if it fits with the Domains. And some of said domains are outrageously powerful.

• Say you want to blast things? Evil gives you a bunch of necromantic direct damage spells. Storm gives you Gust of Wind at Level Two and more offence besides. Sun gives you low-level Searing Lights.Rune gives you Delayed Fireball at L4.
  
• Spells lets you pack Lesser Dispel into your L1 slots and be a counterspell nightmare or even throw them out at mobs.
• Ooze, Chaos, Gnome, Caverns, Darkness. All give you AoE spells to control a battlefield with. ANY cleric gets Scare.
• Planning gives you See Invis *and* Extend spell, a prizewinning anti-magegank combination if ever there was one.
• Want to be a buffer? Try Good, Metal, or Trickery. Or realise you can add +2 AC to Fullplate and extended Divine Shield someone for some sweet AC with low level spells.
• Want to command an army? Animal Domain, elemental domain, or use the fact you get Animate Dead at L3. Top that up with Whisperer and you have an invisible thug team on demand.

Saying that clerics don't get enough non-buff or offence spells is like complaining that a melee Sorcerer has insufficient AB. You're doing a non-standard tactic, expect issues. Clerics have the same number of spells/level as a Wizard, with D8 HP,  fullplate, shields, Simple Weapons and AB. No, you can't blow up an army  on most clerics, but that's why you've got all the other stuff.

Create a system that aids Wizards against dispel magic effects. Why does  a cheap wand completely ruin an expert who has spent thirty years perfecting the defensive aspects of magic?

Dispel spam also screws over Sorcs, Wizards, and Bards. And they have the least effective defences, where s a L9 Cleric has Turn/level Spell Resistance, which will happily block dispel wands. If you have protection Domain, you get Lesser Globe of Invulnerability on top of that, no dispels for 7 rounds or more and the SR has a good chance vs high level spells!

So, your buffs aren't any better than bottles? Use potions yourself and carry an offensive loadout of dispels followed by stuns, summons or debuffs. Only slot the spells that will be better than or unavailable from consumables. Incidentally, Divine Favour potions will count your caster level for the damage and AB on a cleric.

I will, however accept that some spells could be better to encourage more variety in spell use. If any changes below aren't too hard, they could encourage Cleric players to react rather than buff.

• Make Doom and Bane non mind-affecting, they are relatively modest debuffs that won't break the game if they can work through PFX for PVP.
• Make Healing spells work MUCH better when cast by any PC than off an item. Currently even with healing domain, trinkets can be better than any PC caster (CL 10 and 15 devices) and you can have hundreds of uses stashed. I would suggest that if cast by a PC, they add a few turns  of Temporary Hitpoints or rounds of +1 regeneration in addition to the spell, and that the cap on how many levels you add to the roll be removed. Make them worth using over a buff.
• Inflict spells already have the Death Channels perk, but a minor buff to Inflict Light Wounds could be good. For example, uncapping the Caster Level or removing the touch attack for that spell only. Make it into a true L1 offence spell.
• Make Command not Mind-affecting. That turns it into the caster equivalent of KD. It's only ever a 1 round effect, so not worth burning a Dispel to make sure of working.
• Change Soundburst to deal 1 rounds stun + 1 per 2 caster levels or 1d4 damage per 2 Caster levels or something. Wouldn't affect loot, would make it a good choice for bards and Cleric

[Yalta]

Yalta wizards get 2 slots also, you just need to have a specific  school
selected. With clerics you need to have domains selected, which is mandatory

Yes good point Naga, shows how much I play wizards. Though the spell school has significant penalties for bringing it even with a Cleric.

[Spiffy Has]

Removing the heal caps on CASTED healing spells might do wonders...

Like, 1d4*level for light healing

1d6*level for moderate

1d8*level for serious

1d10*level for critical.

[Wafflecone_Hiatus]

Doesn't healing domain work with heal trinkets? or am I mistaken?
 
Wizards get 2 slots if they spec yes, but they have to give something up for that. Clerics only -gain- with their domains.

[you axed for it]

Clerics are balanced. Wizards are just invariably better at absolutely everything, and are thus IMO unbalanced. That's the problem.

[Howlando]

Wizards are invariably better at absolutely everything? Really?

... spell resistance, turning, turn perks, divine power, hammer of the gods, slay living, much better necromancy, better save progression, better BAB progression - and I could go on. Wizards are powerful of course but they still have plenty of weaknesses and are by no means out of control.

Anyway, I hope to not get drawn into some kind of silly class balance thread.

[Semli]

I played a cleric. Easily my most powerful character. All I did was buff myself and tank things. I thought this was balanced by the fact I had a 'code' of sorts I had to live by and try to promote, so I couldn't be a complete questing fool.

They have a lot of strong points, few weaknesses. Other characters outshine them in different situations. Well played clerics will have gifts from their diety and several followers. Whatever 'weak points' they have will be covered by their buddies.

[you axed for it]

SR can be stripped instantly with a L4 wizard spell, as well as successive dispels (extremely common in the current PvP metagame) rendering it useless.

The prevalance of Dispels in PvP also means divine power is very likely to get stripped - of course, I do agree it is a very strong spell.

Turning is a middling ability at best. High CR on all the most important monsters on the big quests means you won't be turning anything that actually poses a threat. While a cleric wastes a round turning a wizard is casting haste on your tank or healing an injured party member.

Hammer of the Gods is a pretty terrible spell, low damage and only a daze effect. Wizards get much better crowd control spells (Confusion, Gust of Wind, Fear, etc) and much better single target and AoE damage spells (Fireball, Flamebrand, Ice Storm...) at DCs usually at least 4 higher and without needing to waste a valuable haste potion to lay down in quick succession (always being under the effect of extended haste when it matters).

Once again, on paper a cleric gets better save progression but when you factor in Spellcraft (most good wizards of high level getting 25-30, sometimes more!) then that becomes irrelevant, not to mention they have more points to dispense into save-related abilities (DEX in particular) at creation.

Better BAB, yeah - but that's inconsequential because a wizard is, offensively, much more terrifying than a cleric.

I really must insist wizards are comparatively much more powerful than clerics. In every single area, whether it be support, versatility, offense, defense, buffing...any mechanical aspect other than controlling low HD mobs of unthreatening undead, wizards are better - and I think therein lies the imbalance.

Anyway, we can probably discuss this in IRC at some point!

[AceOfSpadesX]

Wizards are not better than clerics at melee tanking.

[you axed for it]

50% concealment, immunity to AoOs, 10/+5 DR, 30+ AC - yes they are.

[Drakill Tannan]

A cleric > a melee mage any day.
A non melee mage is godlike.. for the 60 seconds he spends spamming all of his spells. No more

[VanillaPudding]

The thread wasn't about clerics being underpowered but more a general concern and discussion thread. They are, as stated, a middling class (at best) and don't really suffer a ton, but they also don't shine at all. They have serious issues that were pointed out in the overly long first post and I think those issues are just ignored because they are able to squeeze by.

Let's put it this way - The only class that cannot fully recuperate itself from being dispelled is a Cleric.  Even if you are completely selfish with your blessings you'll very quickly find yourself destroyed by dispel magic, whether it's in PvP where everyone and their first born child know to dispel clerics for a free win, or in PvE where the lengthy quest designs allow for maybe two sets of spells (while being hit with countless dispel magics on any high end quest)

SR requires level 9 to use and grants 21 SR. That looks great on paper, but when it quickly becomes 19, 17, or 15 within 18 seconds (assuming they aren't casting it themselves from haste, and assuming I'm in incorrect and it's even worse, decreasing by 4 with successive dispel magic attempts, i forget) it's basically useless.

[Gippy]

This thread is LOL. Clerics consistently are some of the scariest PCs around. They usually just meet inglorious conflict oriented ends prematurely because of the rigors of their RP. A level 10 cleric is super scary + powerful.