Clerics

[VanillaPudding]

Very lengthy post incoming, tl;dr amirite?

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Clerics are one of my favorite classes to play and one of the most interesting of the core selection, yet they come with a heavy price and what I've noticed to be a rather large (and also varied) expectation attached to them. I thought it might be interesting to hear a lot of opinions on the matter so I'll post my own concerns here and see how it turns out. While some of these issues may be avoided by this faith or that, it's a general statement of concerns that applies to the majority of Clerics.

- Higher expectations -

  A Cleric is expected to be outgoing, preach their faith, be an obvious channel to the church, and simply be more appealing in general. A large burden is instantly placed on the player of a Cleric simply due to the fact that failures often outweigh successes on a relative scale. The threat of spell failure is always lingering right behind them, yet the gains of doing it properly are seemingly low. Does the small increase of a chance to raise the dead or other similar bonuses (A level 9 bonus only) equal the weight of the chance to lose all their powers on a whim, or even a small percentage of spell failure?

The second portion of this is alignment, dogmas, and wisdom, especially concerning the evil side of things. A Cleric simply must adhere to the dogma of their deity at all times or face the obvious penalties for not doing it. That is great but I think there is a slight issue there as well. Let's begin with this, in the Docks you have a priest of Umberlee who's described as handing out ritualistic drownings often, something quite illegal in that area. Is the reason he exists there simply because he's powerful or an NPC?

I don't think so, I think it's because Clerics walk around with 18-22 wisdom and are quite capable of finding the many alternate avenues to adhere to a dogma and also avoid a massive mob. We are asked to roleplay are stats often, yet more often I've been asked to be more alignment focused on my cleric than I am even though I've been heavily glued to the dogma very well. I think the priority on this issue should be switched in the eye of the spectator and DM alike, the dogma should outweigh the alignment.

Mechanical failures / Wizard overlords-

  EFU is often described as a "Fighter's playground" and for good reason. Clerics come in a bottle, they are the completely unnecessary class of nwn/efu adventuring, there is nothing that requires them -to form an efficient group-. In fact, if you replace a cleric with either of it's alter aspects (fighter, buffer) you have a superior setup already. I am certain this will be debated heavily but I am going to break it down a little more.

The largest issue I'll start with is dispelling. A Cleric relies more heavily on it's limited "buffs" than any other class. Everything they offer to increase attack bonus comes in easily acquired bottles (or trinkets), bottles that do not help a 3/4 AB class like they do a full AB class. The duration of most buffs is also nearly irrelevant in PvP, as you have the vials lasting 3 minutes each or divine favor being a set duration of 1 minute. Dispel magic targets the more powerful spells first, and as I and almost anyone who's played a cleric knows, you're divine power (Typically the strongest dispensable buff) is getting ripped off ASAP when you're dispelled, followed quickly by you're other self buffs and thus your semi-advantage over the bottle version.

"But VP, you can hold / stun / slay living / whatever from invis!" - Of course you can, but I'm comparing things on an equal level here. I can also use and accuracy potion with improved power attack from invis and hit you once with a greataxe, that's irrelevant to the comparisons. Excluding a sneaky surprise, the Cleric has no means to disable an opponent that isn't more easily completed by the other classes. (Lower AB knockdowns, less affordable dispel magic, clarity and protection from alignment potions, non-mind effecting offensive spells) Even if you dispel their mind protections they can restore it before you can cast again.

As for the second portion of the mechanics, where is the Cleric love with all of those awesome new spells? Were they forgotten, avoided, or deemed unnecessary? (Once again, the new spells are awesome and this isn't a method to discredit the changes in any way)

- VP's suggestions -

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- When the time comes up, revisit some Cleric spells in comparison to their bottled form. Possibly make the divine potions (excluding transmutations) have a duration and effectiveness equal to their casting level.

- Add in some Cleric spells if it's possible. They did get a couple but I think the huge overhaul to Wizards has greatly depreciated the value of anything but a melee Cleric.

- Create a system that aids Clerics against dispel magic effects. Why does a cheap wand completely ruin a divine channeler of a deity? Maybe add a spell that ignores the next two abjurations cast on the cleric or add a stacking 1 SR / level to them, or give them a bonus caster level on dispel checks for every 2 levels they have. Maybe create a tangible faith rating that increases their resistance to dispels.

- In short, let them be more than 7-9 round wrecking machines (assuming they aren't dispelled in that time! :) )

Edit - Removed poorly worded example / wall of text

[Capricious]

Actually, to clear up the point on the ritualistic drownings in the Docks, this is taken from the Region Profile:

• Church of Umberlee - Honored by most residents of the  Docks above all is the Bitch Queen. Her priests are given a respectfully  wide berth on the streets, and no pickpocket has dared yet to lift  one's purse. Umberlee's salty grasp on the Docks is seen everywhere,  from the unquestioned ceremonial drownings conducted by Wavelord Malnusk  on the beaches to the open yet oddly un-robbed shrine in the cliffs.  Recent rumors suggest a building rivalry between the Church and the new  influence of the Ilmateri faith amongst the populace.

[/LIST]In other words, people wouldn't dare question the drownings, they're allowed because no one wants to anger Umberlee by trying to stop them.

[VanillaPudding]

Well right, but what isn't seen and is assumed (from my perspective ) is how he got there, which I doubt was drowning people in rituals at level 3 inside of the docks. He would be wise enough to know his limitations I think, and as an evil cleric, abuse / take advantage of them when he's strong enough to do so. That's a fully IC thing to do for someone that's evil I think.

[you axed for it]

The rewards for playing a good cleric are the same for any other class; DM assistance with your plots, loot, XP, etc. Spell failure is rare, and only given out at least in my experience when a cleric has massively failed (for example, I once gave it out to a cleric of Garagos who fled battle, and he earned it back eventually after atonement). Expectations are slightly higher, but not overbearingly so. You also failed to mention the free enemies and allies you acquire as early as character creation, which in my opinion is a great drawcard for clerics.

As for the mechanical stuff, I think clerics are of middling power. On paper, they seem extremely good, but in practice wizards just do everything better than them and are generally much more valuable to a party. I suggest several new divine-only EFU spells (and have ideas for some) which will assist in closing the gap between the runaway wizard and the somewhat lagging cleric.

Didn't really understand alot of your post though, especially the Valla Djurn shit.

[VanillaPudding]

It was to be an example of dogma vs alignment and which should be / is more important. Poorly worded perhaps, I removed it.

[derfo]

I can't really judge well since I do not really play that many real clerics, but I think it would be cool if eventually all the domains were looked over and revamped.

There is a lot of disparity in power between various gods/domains that makes people tend to favor specific ones/combinations more heavily than seems desirable, and I find it would make individual clerics possibly more unique.

With the overarching balance issues as mentioned above I think it would be the coolest and easiest place to make flavorful changes while addressing them through different spells, properties, so on.

[Wafflecone_Hiatus]

I actually find due to their naturally higher spellslots, Clerics make superior buffbots to Wizards, excepting their lack of II and Haste. They can put out quite a bit of AC buff.
 
What clerics lack mechanically they do make up for with the ability to craft potions, and depending on their domains this can be worth a tidy sum of coins if you go that route.
 
They also have those turn undead perks.
 
That being said, anything that adds more Flavor to clerics would be awesome, including new spells or a consecration system for Clerics/Druids.

[12 Hatch]

In a vacuum, clerics are very powerful.  However, the EfU:A item economy renders a lot of a cleric's holy functions pretty redundant.  They really are outclassed in either respect by fighter/rogues and by wizards, which, while it doesn't ruin the potential for enjoying a cleric by any stretch, does remove a lot of the IC credibility when your character performs divine miracles that a common plant leaf can perform just as well!

I think a mild increase to the difficulty of dispelling cleric spells would serve as an in-character testament to a cleric's faith and persevering loyalty to a divine ideal.  It seems, at least on face, to make sense that a devout holy warrior would be more adamant about maintaining their spells than a dispassionate wizard.

I'd suggest a very modest bonus, like: a level 8+ cleric's spells are counted as being one level higher for the sake of determining whether they are stripped or not by a dispel.

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

1)  Clerics get a lot of the new spells anyway, and they don't need a scroll for them.

2)  Clerics get a lot of new, awesome, custom domains.

They're hardly overlooked.

And I totally disagree with Caddies, they're far from a middling class.

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

But I digress.  They probably could use a fun system like consecration implementing fully, but that's going to take time, and it's not a priority at the minute.

[Howlando]

Was this an April Fool's troll?

[Wafflecone_Hiatus]

Maybe!

[TheImpossibleDream]

Was this an April Fool's troll?

It was posted on the second and some of the points are valid, so I doubt it.

[Howlando]

Depending upon your timezone, it was posted the 1st or 2nd. Regardless, I don't buy any argument at all that clerics are underpowered. Making consecration do something interesting would be nice, though.

[The Old Hack]

I don't exactly think that clerics are underpowered. I do think that there must be something about them that makes them a less played base class, because you don't see many of them. Are people intimidated by the RP demands? Or do they simply not seem 'fun' enough when compared to other classes?