Marksman perk

[Ebok]

Not this kind. I'm against it. Too much, imo. RwG's suggestion might be kinda nice however.

[Egon the Monkey]

I've heard what the AA arrows do, and think making weaker ones craftable would be cool. The problem is, once you have a good melee weapon you are set for life, but you can burn through a stack of 99 good arrows in literally 5 min, then you're back to using basic ones. Playing a Rapid Shot PC in the past, I have filled an inventory page with ammo to do long quests like Hive. Also, due to the Mighty limitations, you get less out of buffs. A dual wield PC can have as many attacks as a Rapid Shot char, but using Strength buffs and weapon buffs to up the damage.

All of these buffs are far and away more cost-effective than buying ammo, and more RP promoting. Since you can buy them off PCs (potions, scrolls, wands), but ammo is only from price gouging NPCs. For example, Alch Fire is 24 gp for 4 rounds of 1d4+1 Fire damage. So you'd expect +1d4 Fire arrows to cost maybe 5 GP each, as you'd get through 12 of the things in 4 rounds, but you'd not need to spend 1 round applying it. I've suggested before letting Flame Weapon and Alch Fire work on stacks of 99 arrows, or having it add some kind of weak Unlimited Ammo function (Possibly using the fact you can now make custom Unlimited Ammo effects)

Just my 2 cents. People don't see a use for archers who aren't Sneak Attack spammers, not least because they can't use key buffs a meleer can. Having those buffs apply weaker bonuses to ranged weapons (+1 Ab but not dmg from Magic Weapon, +2, +1d4, +1d6 fire damage to arrows) would let them benefit from buff spells rather than burn money on more supplies than a meleer needs to be effective.

I think one good idea though would be to have some powerful ranged weapons that are restricted against Rogue use. For example a +4 Mighty OUB Fighter/Ranger/Barb/Wizard/Sorc/Bard bow //Do Not UMD.

[Drakill Tannan]

I'll break my promise just to say something quick.

+2 damage may seem too much, consider there is no flame weapon or magic weapon for bows. And you can most add +3 with that mighty bow wich also gives -2 AC, to reach that +3 chances are you'll need bulls str, you'll still do less damage than a figher buffed with bull's STR and any 1d8 damage weapon.

+4 may be too much, but conider you'll need 3 feats to be able to shoot twice per round if your have a BAB of 6, in order for this to be effective. +3 seems fine.

AA still get the the AB to pierce blur, and 3 fireball-arrows, in addition to 1 extra daamge.

And yes, the point is to avoid Rogue archers, better even if the perk would be restricted to non-rogues imo.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Dual wield has the same attacks sure. But you can't attack from two fireballs distance. if we're going to start making crazy comparisons why not complain about Empowered Isaacs Greater Missle Storm doing more damage than a greataxe on average.


Playing an archer is not easy to do well. If you do it wrong you'll be a useless potplant good for nothing.

I'd love to have an archer in one of my groups who knows how to play one. They destroy mage type monsters before they even have a chance to cast. They also do great against monsters that "flee" as they ignore those targets dodge ac most of the time. They don't often have to use many supplies, so when it comes to distribution they don't need much other than gold for specialist ammo.

In pvp you simply bring your special ammo's out to play. Crushing a mage with a see invis pot is so amazingly easy as an archer. It's hilarious, even if they buff up to around 25~ ac the average for a wizard, you should be able to get at least +15/+10/+15 by level 7 which will cut through thier d4 hp in no time at all.

If an enemy so much as look at you, keep expid retreat up and just run around and fire. It is literally impossible to catch up with somebody who runs and shoots if they have any kind of speed enhancement. Even if they drink haste, so long as your speed is the same as thiers and you never fire more than one shot, they cannot possibly ever reach you, unless you stumble on something or get dispelled.

I'd could go on and on about the massive advantages to ranged weapons in pve and pvp. I'd have brought up stuff like how it's a rogue sneak attack delivery system that can cause monsters to waste a round trying to reach an impossible to reach archer, but you mentioned wanting this more so for non rogue archers.

[Egon the Monkey]

Exactly, Naga. A PC with rogue levels doesn't care what they use as long as they can hit someone with it from behind. A specialist in one weapon can't switch weapons at whim. I know the benefits of ranged weapons. It's generally my PCs standing in disbelief after saying "Quick, shoot those!" and all the Fighters shuffling around muttering about not being able to spare 3 lbs for a longbow. 10-12 DEX but full BAB means you're still useful vs fleeing NPC mages or weak shooters you can't charge. Special ammo is good yes, but the rarity is the issue. There are a few good bits of shoploot, but in general you do save it for PVP as you'll burn it all out on one quest. Yes, you can make certain ammo types in the crafting systems, but that's low-yield and hit and miss as to what you discover.

As for the comparison, yes you get a ton of range, but we know that. My point is that in exchange for that, you lose being able to use any sort of buff that lets you cut past DR to some degree (+elemental damage, MW, Power Attack). As we know, between 5-10 DR mobs and Blur pots, there's a lot of that going around.

We've got a perk for unarmed combat, which isn't too much of a gimp choice when you can easily have buffable +2 or even +1d4 gloves and can't be disarmed or need to carry any weighty weapons. We've got ones that mechanically reward focusing on certain spells, when blasting things with AoE spells has always been a decent option. Adding a perk for PCs that focus on ranged combat rather than "whatever gets me the backstabs" looks on balance to be less powerful than the Ele Bond Perks for example.

[Porkolt]

Ranged weapons don't need to be boosted.
 
If you can't get any results, you're doing it wrong.
 
Also, if I'm not mistaken, +1 AB longbows drop in the module.

[Wafflecone_Hiatus]

Chiming in here since I play a primary ranged low ab character. From what i've seen, ranged weapons are mostly for their utility and the diversity of ammunition.
 
My dinky 1d4 dmg makes me wish I had intended to take some rogue lvls, mind. But my characters primary purpose is musical support, so any ranged dmg I can throw in with a sling is just gravy.

[Egon the Monkey]

Porkolt: They do, but it is impossible to acquire a selection to allow you to cope with most foes, nor have I ever seen any that help against Undead or Shapechangers, the main DR things. Nor any that are +1 AND Mighty. These may exist of course, but if so they are too rare to be useful.

[Udenbur]

Unfortunately for us, all of Naga's comparisons are

crazy comparisons

For all the mechanically adept taking stands out here, comprehension of why you are in denial of a ranged weapon being less useful than a melee weapon in every single conceivable situation asides from shooting down 8hp dispelling NPCs is lost on me. YES! Even in PvP when your target runs away at near dead, there are far better ways readily available to take them out.

The exception being a PrC or a rogue, picking up a focus in melee weapons is always the better choice. I'm all for diversity and if it takes a minor perk (in the form of +1 damage) to see it promoted, I say yay.

[Coldburn]

As far as I´m concerned, the topic ended with Naga.

[Porkolt]

Porkolt: They do, but it is impossible to acquire a selection to allow you to cope with most foes, nor have I ever seen any that help against Undead or Shapechangers, the main DR things. Nor any that are +1 AND Mighty. These may exist of course, but if so they are too rare to be useful.

Then work for it and get DM loot.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Unfortunately for us, all of Naga's comparisons are


For all the mechanically adept taking stands out here, comprehension of why you are in denial of a ranged weapon being less useful than a melee weapon in every single conceivable situation asides from shooting down 8hp dispelling NPCs is lost on me. YES! Even in PvP when your target runs away at near dead, there are far better ways readily available to take them out.

The exception being a PrC or a rogue, picking up a focus in melee weapons is always the better choice. I'm all for diversity and if it takes a minor perk (in the form of +1 damage) to see it promoted, I say yay.

The reason you don't comprehend it is because it's an semi-advanced tactic that you've never been exposed to or made use of due to you personally being deadset in your opinion that archers are bad and not worth playing.

The only thing I'm short of doing at the minute is taking screenshots and drawing arrows...

When I say "fleeing targets" I mean Flayer, Slinger, Orc Sorcerer etc. Those targets run constantly until cornered.

The benifit of ranged attacks for sneak attacks, for you and anybody else who has never played a ranged sneak attacker is simple. When your tank is engaged with three targets, if you sneak attack a target that is pinned between two enemies, it will break off for a round negating any damage taken by your tank, and/or give the tank/flankers an attack of oppertunity.

In pvp you break out the easy to obtain 1d4~1d6 ammo that you've been hording, knock back a see invis and aim weak targets or your warriors target from a safe distance. If your warrior gets crit one shot, you can simply run away as you already have a gigantic distance from your opponents. if your opponents do attempt to flee you can throw a tangle bag or keep shooting if they're low. it's really not that hard...

So yeah benifit of ranged weapon over melee weapon is not having to be within melee range where the strongest weapons can strike you.

[Egon the Monkey]

I'm going to try and jog this thread off its increasing circular arguments. What *harm* does it do to allow a ranged specialist to trade a little effectiveness in melee for a little extra damage that places them above Joe Bow? Is this opposition in case we see Longbow chars slaughtering Generic Greataxe Barbs left right and centre? I think not. As you've said, hard to use well.

There are Perks that:

• Add flavourful but powerful effects to offence spells, that have encouraged offensive mages fron all schools to use spells when questing more, and to show off their specialisation.
• Give your entire team +1 divine dmg off a cheap potion.
• Trade 2 Dex for most of the benefits of +2 Con, encouraging fat PCs actually existing.

Those are pretty handy perks, and in comparison, a buff to promote an underused weapon line and see people use your "semi advanced tactics" of Kill The Wounded Runner. Heck, I draw bows or cantrip wands on Near Death NPCs on most chars, because why chase them all over town? We know you can make a kickass archer, so no need to go rolling up an alt and claiming it proves you right over everything.

Most players will see the low damage and lack of buffs for a bow and think "why bother with this as a primary weapon?" A perk would give a little nudge in power, but more importantly let a PC state "I am a True Archer" as a point of their concept. I mean, that's what perks are for. A little boost for your PC in their defining feature.

[Udenbur]

Good thing most people don't use Ghostly Visage in PvP and that bows combining Mighty and DR penetration aren't rare.

[SIZE="1"]O wait![/SIZE]

Well hooked in on what I said here,

he exception being a PrC or a rogue

- ranged weapons are indeed quite nice for rogues!

Reading all of this though, it seems that you are comparing the benefits with the benefits, completely neglecting the cons. If ranged weapons were so useful as you make them out to be both in PvP & PvE I'm sure that after some X years of NWN some of us would have seen the light instead of staying true to their melee weapons.

Enough on this, more on Egon's point

[Udenbur]

Most players will see the low damage and lack of buffs for a bow and think "why bother with this as a primary weapon?" A perk would give a little nudge in power, but more importantly let a PC state "I am a True Archer" as a point of their concept. I mean, that's what perks are for. A little boost for your PC in their defining feature.

Precisely. Look around, the perks include p.much everyone. Necromancers, bloody savages, stealthers, nature characters, big boned men and women, the list goes on. Let's shed some love on the marksmen while we're at it