Hardcore Mode

[Egon the Monkey]

I find more that I have decent supplies going up to 7 or so without too much effort, and easily resupply if I run low. Then at 7 or higher, if you get there you end up locked in a quest cycle to be able to get enough supplies and money to pay your underlings or fight off rivals. People less familiar with EFU quests may have more trouble. Your Mileage May Vary, players.

I think a solution would be some more loot reliability. Not Hardcore Mode, but Easy Mode. Purple Crystals is a healing resupply run, but few other quests have guaranteed payouts of a specific thing. The high level ones tend to be high risk high reward, randomised loot. Now, a few quests of low risk, lowish but clear reward in money or other supplies, would let you not have to take on quests when you are supply drained.

Make them time consuming though, so they are inefficient to grind unless you need the loot.  You could RP, hit the simple quests to restock, and then take on a challenge when you are actually up to it, rather than needing to gamble. There is one delivery quest that goes up to L10, but it's only available to one part of the server. Similarly for the wilds quests.

I find Gnolls to be a great example of a quest that is exciting, varied and usually rewarding, with an interesting way to get extra loot beyond just social checks. Orcs though, does seem to be shrunk to a vestige of its former payout, for the same risk.

[you axed for it]

I was hesitant to post here in the Suggestions forum because I knew this shit would spiral into a formless, circular and moronic debate about how hard things are perceived to be by all and sundry. And I was right.

For the record I personally have not experienced some 'XP NERF' that people seemingly just made up in the course of this thread, and am not referencing that as to why there should be a Hardcore Mode.

People like RWG will always say 'Yeah, the grind is the grind yo' and then state that its possible to succeed without having to stoop to it. While that is true sometimes, even RWG must be forced to admit that 9/10 times he just gets steamrolled prematurely due to lack of levels and supplies needed to realistically pursue his plots. However, if RWG and a few savvy friends of his all chose the risky Hardcore Mode and managed to pull it off, they'd level to the critical point (which for most PCs will be L7) in a suitable amount of time and be able to legitimately compete from a plotting perspective, thereby enriching the server overall.

And Howland mentioned he'd not like to see L10 PCs after like a week- well, how about making the cap for this Hardcore Mode to be level seven? After all, the entire purpose of this mode would be the allowance for people with less IRL time to reach the critical mass needed to realistically pursue their plots with chance for success. As mentioned, this would be L7 for basically all classes except full BAB ones, who 'come of age' a level earlier.

I'd also just like to ask everyone not to dilute this discussion on the merits and disadvantages of Hardcore Mode with tangental, subjective bickering.

[meow-mix]

The system I have always thought would be best is that each quest gave a significantly larger XP payout on completion, but only once per quest, permanently. That way, the only way to reach "max level" would be to do every single quest in the module.
 
Doing a quest repeatedly every day would only be useful for gear/loot and fun with your team.
 
That way, non powerquesters would be average level without the grind, and powerquesters could STILL be mechanically more powerful than their less crush devoted servermates, but people who would rather plot and RP could do so without being at a terrifying disadvantage of levels, when conflict time arose.
 
But then I suppose that SOME cawazy few would just do every quest in 1 day...sigh...that WOULD be lame, wouldn't it...Grind it is!

[AceOfSpadesX]

This would just cause unnecessary divisiveness within the player base. The chasm between veterans who have been rolled over each quest hundreds of times and newer players would only widen. People already complain that the elite questers exclude them from the action. This would only exacerbate the problem.

Also, the XP nerf is very real.

[One_With_Nature]

I think its more a matter of the risk getting greater with the new changes as people are dying more often and there being no change in reward supply and xp wise.

I don't know how the xp system works, but since the changes (months ago) it has been alot harder to level especially after level 6, although i don't think i have had a pc above six since then.

Quests that i have found to be Risk > Reward would be:

-Orcs 1 & 2 (2 gives litrally no xp to level 8 + and its a max 10 quest/ Also low reward supply wise at least for orcs 1 given the risk)
-Flayers 2
-ToM (Despite the potentially nice rewards everyone seems to die on it now)
- Temple of Jergal (Jusy my opinion but seems a little light on reward)


Basically what i thinks happening is mobs have suddenly got alot harder and unlike before people are actually needing to use their supplies more often but because there has been no change in reward people are suffering from low supplies leading to more deaths. The fact that the xp is less then it use to be just makes it difficult to progress in levels + supplies. Also when you die the set xp loss is still 1/3 so with that in mind the gap between level progression and death penalty becomes more and more brutal and when you don't have the supplies to prevent such, it becomes frustrating.

Edit: Also the only reason the XP nerf has been brought up was because you can actually really start to feel it now.

[Letsplayforfun]

There’s an issue with people getting bored with quest-grinding. That’s perfectly understandable, and we don’t want players getting bored. Some simple player based solutions exist though:
1 - don’t grind them. RP during the quests. Take your time. Enjoy the presence of others. Avoid the casual metagaming (that’s a killer]. Do quests with less than optimal groups.
2 â€" do harder / more exotic quests.
3- don’t quest: gather people to do your stuff, send a pm on dm channel and see what happens, or ask on IRC if someone want to spice your exploration/building team.
4 â€" don’t quest: plot, chat, etc. But it’s not as XP rewarding, because it’s risk free.

#1 & 2 means you’ll probably die more. But you’ll be having more fun questing.

Quest grinding is not a necessity, it’s a stress you’re putting on your own shoulders.We can implement more quests for diversification, but it would only work for a week then you’d grind them alike.

To sum up this issue: XPs and lvls are an addiction that doesn’t care what lvl/XP you already are. We could make everyone start at 7 and you’d still complain others get to 11 faster, or that you still “need” to lvl up faster to reach your goals.

Then there’s a (real) issue with a widening gap between vets and occasional players, but it won’t be solved by allowing vets to lvl up even faster. Worst, it would only widen the gap, and I don’t think that’s positive.

People lvl up faster than others because:
1- they play more
2- they die less (they are mechanics-wise)
3- they have a group
Changing the XP factor would only change #1. We could make it easier until lvl6-7, but it wouldn’t stop people dying frequently, and they’d still miss the ooc-buddy quest-train that takes others to 9 in a week.

As for solutions to diminish the lvl gap between vets and others, well, any other suggestions are welcome.

One might be to lower the lvl cap to something like 9. (more or less like EfU)
One might be to ease the way to lvl7 (but it’s so easy already...).
One might be to have low lvl quests give supplies and higher lvl quests force people to use their’s. (but that’s hard to balance, and mech-wise people are able to waste less supplies, so it wouldn’t help much anyways).
One might be to give everyone lvl 7 with no XP gain or loss except dm XP, but wouldn’t that be boring too?
One might be to have a lvl5 starting portal (app only?) to avoid repeating newby quests.

Whatever. Keep suggestions going, maybe something good will come up.

But just be sure what’s irking you: “needing” to grind quests (which is a self-twisted need), or comparing your pc with other pcs (then it’s ego you’re looking at, not EfU). Lvls only matter in pvp, and even then, it's people that are mechanics-wise, pvp-friendly, and loot-filled that'll save the day anytime, even if they are 2-3 lvls below their foes. For what it’s worth, the players/PCs that are getting complimented on EfU are one who’s pcs rock since creation (ex: BOM), not the ones that reach lvl9 in a week. Some can do both: good for them.

[VanillaPudding]

There’s an issue with people getting bored with quest-grinding. That’s perfectly understandable, and we don’t want players getting bored. Some simple player based solutions exist though:
1 - don’t grind them. RP during the quests. Take your time. Enjoy the presence of others. Avoid the casual metagaming (that’s a killer]. Do quests with less than optimal groups.
2 â€" do harder / more exotic quests.
3- don’t quest: gather people to do your stuff, send a pm on dm channel and see what happens, or ask on IRC if someone want to spice your exploration/building team.
4 â€" don’t quest: plot, chat, etc. But it’s not as XP rewarding, because it’s risk free.

Odd suggestions on the first two considering there is another thread on how quests have already become unrewarding and overly risky. As for the others, no thanks. We're still playing a video game at the end of things, and while the core of it is indeed roleplay, I am not going to expect a rather understaffed and busy set of volunteers who already spent time designing quests to reward me for avoiding them, nor do I think anyone should expect that.

Most games, including any sort of RPG, PnP, or whatever else have a thing called progression, and I see no reason to halt that at any point (although the means in which one can progress may change and swing to another spectrum quite often!) Also, avoiding RISK on EFU is just silly, that's probably a good reason why a lot of people remain here is to face a (legitimate) challenge through it's many aspects.

Quest grinding is not a necessity, it’s a stress you’re putting on your own shoulders.We can implement more quests for diversification, but it would only work for a week then you’d grind them alike.

It's a complete necessity if you want to play a proactive / conflict generating PC. Any sort of villain or even a big goodly force needs supplies and levels to face it's many (and typically greater) challenges.

Then there’s a (real) issue with a widening gap between vets and occasional players, but it won’t be solved by allowing vets to lvl up even faster. Worst, it would only widen the gap, and I don’t think that’s positive.

Hardly. The gap will remain identical, with "vets" having an easier time and hitting your level caps while the regulars and less experienced people (who typically CHOOSE to and have chosen to avoid learning the mechanics of an ancient game). Very few people are new to NWN, and I think even certain DMs and active players (IO, SC) have proven that you can learn it very quickly if you try.

One might be to have a lvl5 starting portal (app only?) to avoid repeating newby quests.

The Veteran portal, I like it. It could replace INHABITANT that most of us click to avoid the same old scene when the mythalar lights up.

[derfo]

it's cool and all to derail a topic with speculation but can we please have hardcore mode

[TheImpossibleDream]

There’s an issue with people getting bored with quest-grinding. That’s perfectly understandable, and we don’t want players getting bored. Some simple player based solutions exist though:
1 - don’t grind them. RP during the quests. Take your time. Enjoy the presence of others. Avoid the casual metagaming (that’s a killer]. Do quests with less than optimal groups.
2 – do harder / more exotic quests.
3- don’t quest: gather people to do your stuff, send a pm on dm channel and see what happens, or ask on IRC if someone want to spice your exploration/building team.
4 – don’t quest: plot, chat, etc. But it’s not as XP rewarding, because it’s risk free.

1 - Grinding quests does not mean you are not roleplaying on a quest. It just means you are doing multiple quests a day in the hopes of gaining experience and supplies.

After completing a quest multiple times with the same character it becomes more and more difficult to come up with methods of making them appear surprised or afraid when they should be.

As for non optimized groups. I've done a lot of these recently. it does not raise the difficulty. It only slows things down drastically and often feels like trying to paint a shed with a toothbrush, you'll get there, but it takes a lot longer. When it comes to future attempts with the same character it becomes harder and harder to keep things interesting when otherwise short quests drag out in the same predictable manner as before.

2 - Quests difficulty generally is not the reason a quest is avoided. If a quest is fun and challenging (sinister enclave) or/and rewarding (coral cove) it will be done regularly. if it is a very tough quest that rewards very little (lizardfolk) then it will almost never be taken for anything but once off roleplay trips. Which are only enjoyable once per character.

3 + 4 Are a random chance of success and exploring some areas is a bit of a drag once you've been there a few times before if something doesn't happen.

#1 & 2 means you’ll probably die more. But you’ll be having more fun questing.

Quest grinding is not a necessity, it’s a stress you’re putting on your own shoulders.We can implement more quests for diversification, but it would only work for a week then you’d grind them alike.

To sum up this issue: XPs and lvls are an addiction that doesn’t care what lvl/XP you already are. We could make everyone start at 7 and you’d still complain others get to 11 faster, or that you still “need” to lvl up faster to reach your goals.

Not really. Within our maximium level range the key level you want to obtain based on your class is 7 or 8. Any level above that is nice, but for the most part any veteran can do without them. The thing about levels is. While a level 7 can defeat a level 14 a level 5 has no chance against a level 10. Assuming the players in these examples are mechanically adept. Show me an example of a player below level 7 defeating somebody 2-4 levels higher than them and I'll show you somebody who doesn't know thier mechanics.

Then there’s a (real) issue with a widening gap between vets and occasional players, but it won’t be solved by allowing vets to lvl up even faster. Worst, it would only widen the gap, and I don’t think that’s positive.

People lvl up faster than others because:
1- they play more
2- they die less (they are mechanics-wise)
3- they have a group
Changing the XP factor would only change #1. We could make it easier until lvl6-7, but it wouldn’t stop people dying frequently, and they’d still miss the ooc-buddy quest-train that takes others to 9 in a week.

The reason for veteran and "occasional" (I assume you mean newish) players not questing with one another has nothing to do with leveling speed.

But just be sure what’s irking you: “needing” to grind quests (which is a self-twisted need), or comparing your pc with other pcs (then it’s ego you’re looking at, not EfU). Lvls only matter in pvp, and even then, it's people that are mechanics-wise, pvp-friendly, and loot-filled that'll save the day anytime, even if they are 2-3 lvls below their foes. For what it’s worth, the players/PCs that are getting complimented on EfU are one who’s pcs rock since creation (ex: BOM), not the ones that reach lvl9 in a week. Some can do both: good for them.

I bolded the line where you basically give the reason that it is required you grind quests. There has never ever been a single pc who "saved the day" who did not grind quests to get the stuff he needed to "save the day." No matter where thier "largest source" of supplies come from, you can trace thier entire reason for gaining those supplies to the grinding of the quests.

At the end of the day. Increased rate of experience does not mean one side will level faster than another. If a veteran earns 200 experience a day and a non veteran earns 100 and experience rate is increased, the veterans experience becomes 400 and the non veterans experience becomes 200. The increments would be identical to before the change...

Also hardcore mode, yes please...

[Howlando]

I'm going to leave aside some of the issues brought up in this thread.

What we'd like is -

Fast, simple progression to level 5. (it really does seem this is the case still?)

Moderate pace to level 7.

Slow but steady and achievable progress to 9, with excellent characters reaching 10 and a small number of long-term and dynamic PCs reaching 11-12.

I think what we had before is some quests, for example Orcs 1, giving such gigantic quantities of XP that a low level PC could latch onto an orcs group and vault into the high levels very quickly.

[Drakill Tannan]

The idea of making high-level quests that alow low-level PCs give massive experience to low level PC seems like a good one. It encourages new players to make friends, rather than go erranding, in order to lvel up. It also allows already established groups to "train" their new members to their level rather fast. I also agree that a veteran portal "Start at level 5 and with 300 gold" would be exelent, you'd really start weaker than a PC that makes errands, but oh, how annoying errands are after you've done them 50 times! I'd take it every time...

[DeadBoondoggle]

Any chance of something like this yet? The "grind" is worse than ever with the new setting and is literally keeping people from playing at this point. XP has been lowered in the new setting, DM rewards are honestly at a very low point, and those two factors lead to some bit of annoyance when trying to advance.

Combine the slower advancement and lack of RP rewards with a higher      low-end of levels and things just seem out of place. The only systems that have been put in support longevity rather than RP, in contrast with their name, and really do not help in anything since their rewards cut off at 6 or 7 while players are starting at level four after an intro and hitting level five within an hour of creation.

I am not a great roleplayer by far, but I'd certainly rather spend my time being proactive than being forced to spam and grind quests more than ever so I can achieve any success in the world outside of being reactive.

[mucka1916]

Since this thread has been brought up from the old I'd like to relate to my own experiences on the server.

As some DM's and players would be aware, I have a nightmare of a time when it comes to players that keep dying. I've never had a PC above level 7 and at most have held level 7 for a day max. I die constantly to quests and even spawns as DM's would be aware from the amount of "clear corpse" scenarios that they find me in... At times absolutely ludacris situations that even baffle them.

But there's many ways of gaining XP on the server other than running the same quests thats entirely possible to get to a high-level stage with BUT you must be willing to put in effort as well.

- DM's are extremely nice at throwing XP to players that put on a large amount of events or a single or series of events that are original and well thought out.
- The XP wage offered by DM factions goes a long way to getting a PC to the level 7 mark
- There are constant DM events and town raids that are a great way of leveling even if you just sit back, take an invis and watch the numbers fly high.
- XP gained from gathering and just exploration. Get a party and go for a long walk of the server to places you've never been.

And above all talk to the DM's. I've bitched and moaned countless times to DM's and experienced players about having severe problems with poorly mechaniced PCs. And for the most part they have come to me with constructive critism or do's and don't and possiblities to open my character up to avenues that I never even thought of.

No DM wants a player to have a rough time unless you grind out constant min/max characters who's sole purpose and design is crushbotting and just being boring.

Hardcore mode is a no for me because it allows for too much mediocrity. People who haven't and aren't willing to spend the time developing the characters... Not only from a fighting point of view but from an rounded character style.

No-one wants a server full of awesome characters because it's the triers and battlers that make the server what it is. Too many high end characters spoils this because the only benefit for overall high XP gain is fast built PvP characters. And PvP =/= RP. It can add but one does not constitute the other.

That's my ramble anyways.

[Zborowski]

I don't see how a veteran's portal/hardcore mode would in any way contribute to either an increase or decrease in the quality of the characters being made by players. Its just an option for veteran players who are confident in themselves to quickly get into the mix without needing to invest exorbitant amounts of IRL time they do not have or cannot spare to quest extensively.

[Seanzie]

I think that questing is only good for two things. Getting supplies and gaining/loosing levels. It takes away from meaningful roleplay, but adds the chance for new players to be friends with higher level/vet players. I think this should be implemented.

If this happened. It would allow players to:

1) Create a better story
2) Spend less time grinding quests
3) More time role playing
4) Create a sense of excitement for those who choose it and a different level of danger
5) Make people stop complaining about there not being a hardcore mode