Scrying

[prestonhunt]

Too good, imo.  

I know it has a counter, but the counter isnt scribe-able, and thus not very prevalent.  

There aren't enough items with the counter in them to use.  

It makes a class that is arguably among the best classes there is (Wizards) better, and makes one that is arguably among the worst (rogues) worse, in that it takes away from the need to hire rogues for spying.

Its too easy.  You cast the spell, pick a player name and go.  Sure, you need to be by a thingy, but there is no reason NOT to do so.

In pen and paper, you need personal knowledge of the person you are scrying, whether it be in carrying something they owned, or whatnot.

I suggest that a special component be required to scry, a'la Raise Dead requiring a Diamond.  If you want to scry someone, you need to shell out 500 gold for the components.  (DMs can figure out the price).

Then of course, a recipe can be added to Alchemy that will allow that item to be made, but with a high DC, to spawn a player market on said item.

P

[Luke Danger]

This may be a good idea; casually allowing a wizard to scry like crazy is only going to result in the best plan being one made up spur of the moment. It shouldn't have a redic cost, but it should be tougher than "take spell, prep it, go to easy-to-reach device, scry"

[FlowerEatingElf]

Who needs Rogue guilds. Just hire a Diviner. Always said that EFU is too small for scrying.

[AllMYBudgies]

I do think that there should be a means of making scrying harder to achieve, however I think that with a decent level of RP to support a diviner it can be used as a wonderful tool to encourage conflict and plotting.

I wouldn't like to see it made in to something that nobody uses, as it is a cool feature for the server, at least in my opinion. But I agree it is far too easy to scry any and everyone, and there should be some penalty to avoid it being used quite so frequently. I think that people using scrying should aim for a responsible, and plausible usage for the spell, such as only using it only people you actually know in game etc.

[Wildlings]

3. There is a roll vs spell DC to make you find out whether anyone is scrying and who it might be.

My 9th level Cleric has been scry'ed on, and I can say that as of yet I have never known it.  What is this DC?  And does it only count if you are the target of the spell?  What if you are one of the people talking to the target?  Do you have to be so close to the target of the spell for the scryer to know you are there?  Or just in hearing range?  These are all things that determine just how powerful this spell is.

if it is only the target you can hear and the DC is semi realistic (Lower than 30) then it's fine.

If everyone in the "hearing" range is effected by the spell.. well do each get a chance to know someone is 'watching'?  If yes, then cool.  If no.. well then perhaps they need to.

To need a Cleric or Wizard anytime you want to plot is somewhat extreme.  (And hope they have the spell ready and are high enough level to cast it.)

I like the idea of the spell, just hope it's not being over used.. as it takes some of the fun of 'conflict' out of the game when you have no idea you are even being watched.

[Anonymous Bosch]

It's not really the same.  Scryers don't need to know where their target is, or unless I'm mistaken about it, anything other than the character name obtained from the player list.

[Divine Intervention]

Listen is far far easier to get than warding.

[Howlando]

1 - The scrying h8 is interesting to me, because I think a lot of it is founded from misinformation and general OOC paranoia from our "team nature" clique. It's just kind of funny to me. "Scrying"gets blamed for a lot of stuff in an OOC way when it isn't even involved.

2 - I do agree though that PCs should only scry PCs that they are familiar with or studied extensively. A system to incorporate this is on the to-do list, and in the meantime we as DMs do ask those very few players who have access to this to respect that.

3 - I do like the dynamic scrying adds, because our server actually is enormous and it's one theoretical tool that can be used to track down otherwise undetectable high stealth PCs who hide in the wilds.

4 - With a relatively achievable DC, targets can IC'ly know exactly who is trying to scry upon them and respond as they see fit.

5 - There are various ways to counter it: items that are extremely common in a low level quest, items in ambient loot, items in various other scripted quests. If it's a private conversation, you can also just - oh, I don't know - walk five steps to the left and whisper.

6 - There are very few scrying focuses. While scrying, the wizard is totally vulnerable and PCs have already been killed because they were caught while scrying in this vulnerable spot.

I'm not opposed by any means by adding more counters or tweaking the spell, but I do want to take this opportunity to mention my own perspective, hopefully clear up some misconceptions, and express some vague and general disappointment that some people seem to choose to respond to it with such OOC dislike.

[Coldburn]

Scrying seems to me a powerful too, but one that comes at a heavy cost: The need for specific locations where you can scry, which either leave you extremely dangerous and exposed (from what I understand), or are items used in safer locations through to perks offered as a DM reward or application. Either way, an investment of several feats which made a previously useless Spell School slightly more popular (No Diviner Overlord influx to which we bend the knee) has made it an interesting spell and Spell School. But again, from what I understand there's several easy ways to counter this; 3 classes can anti-scry, Spellcraft to detect is available to a further 5 base classes, there's plenty of areas immunity to scrying within this server.

So perhaps using /w under a shadowy tree in a forgotten forest isn't the best means of conversation any more. There's plenty of alternatives.

[Wildlings]

Most people have no idea they are being watched or stalked by uber-stealth sneaks either, so I think at the end it balances out. Warding against scrying is much cheaper than Clairaudience/Clairvoyance against the stealthy folk.

You are right, but the uber-stealth sneak needs to be in hearing range, and runs the risk of being caught.  Even if you learn you are being 'watched' there is no instant fear of retribution for the scry'er.
It's rather easy to stay out of harms way when you can listen in from a distance.

Like I said, I like the idea of the spell, I would just hate for it to be being over used.  There should be some risk in learning others secrets.

[The Old Hack]

I am in a bit of a quandary here as I have experimented once or twice with scrying and I am not sure if I am spoiling stuff by revealing its shortcomings. It might be a FOIG thing but it has at least one that makes rogue spying far superior in comparison.

I will say this: 'Region' is somewhat badly defined. When I initially experimented, I thought it might possibly mean the same area or its vicinity, but now I am wondering if when you speak of a 'region' you are considering the entire island of Ymph one region, the Underdark another and small islands a third.

I do not know if anyone has ever spied on Karrin but I have never ever received a message of being scried on. Even so, that can also be sidestepped by only picking on poor save targets that might be part of the same plots you want information about. Example: You want to spy on the pesky Wildfolk. You don't target their cleric or their sorcerer, you go for their rogue or their warrior...

[Ebok]

The odds that you are being scried upon is minimal, even if you are there are number of countermeasures that are free. You can resort to passing notes or using coded speech. You can mix up the information, never reveal a single plan in it's entirety. Getting warding isn't impossible, pitting up requests to buy warding is always available.

Sneaking is still an incredible way of gaining information. And might I mention, about a billion other things as well. Scrying is suppose to be dangerous, it's suppose to make people feel like their privacy is being violated. And it's very very cool. React IG; heck I haven't played a single PC who didn't end up with a few warding items.  and for the right price I would totally sell a few.

Anyway, I kinda think that most people are overreacting.

[you axed for it]

Comparing scrying with stealth is just stupid in so many ways.

I sort of agree with the OP though, my personal opinion is that scrying is just a bit too powerful. I don't really consider needing to go to specific areas very dangerous, given their locations - you'd have to be ABYSMALLY unlucky for your enemies to 'happen' by when you're scrying...and if you're scrying, you'd be wise to where they are anyway?

My biggest gripe is it pretty much singlehandedly destroys the need to hire real spies, and thus IMO the concept is broken on a small server where there are 40 players max at any time.

[Underbard]

The odds that you are being scried upon is minimal, even if you are there are number of countermeasures that are free. You can resort to passing notes or using coded speech. You can mix up the information, never reveal a single plan in it's entirety. Getting warding isn't impossible, pitting up requests to buy warding is always available.

Not that scrying is bad, but, for those of us who can't be IG 8 hours a day, and don't have time to code partial messages etc...our options become somewhat limited.  As most people don't know they are being scried on, there is basically no way to counteract as with a spy who got caught.
 
Makes it a little OP in my opinion.

[Egon the Monkey]

Scrying is far, far easier to block than uber stealthers sitting in a room undetected, 2 foot away in plain sight. If anything, it needs to be made easier to detect PCs who take the mickey by standing right next to classes they know can't possibly make their spot DC even with modifiers. Say, a player tool that detects and deals 1 damage to any PC within a two-meter "grab range" but can only be used once per hour. A representation of taking a wild swing into the gloom when a closed door mysteriously opens or a lever mysteriously gets pulled.

Scrying is a rare trick, with a counter that's relatively easy to acquire (L7 caster or low-level questloot) and I believe causes you to waste the entire spell if blocked. It makes you worried about known Diviners, but not, in general, most mages.