Scrying

[12 Hatch]

Overall, scrying is a good thing.  However, the notion of having your evil secret lair auto-discovered unless you happen to have Ward Area available every single time you go there is a little disconcerting for the less-than-lawful types.

Perhaps it could be made so that the individual scried upon is seen and heard, but no one else around them is?

Not sure how feasible that is, but it's a possibility.

It is, I will admit, a bit uneven how a sneaky individual really has to dedicate themselves to sneaking, and then luck out enough to find the individual and hope they aren't in an HQ around NPCs, yet any level 7 wizard can scry in a reasonably effective manner.

Perhaps if scrying isn't weakened, stealth should be at least slightly increased?

[Ommadawn]

I don't see that anything needs changing, TBH. Scrying is, like herbalism/alchemy/other new spells, a wonderful and flavourful addition to the server. I was scryed a LOT when I played team nature so I think I can be unbiased about it even though I am playing a mage now.  

Also remember, rogues can stealth and listen for ages, while the scrying spell is relatively short-lived so what info you can gather is fairly limited too.

[BeteNoire]

I think scrying is great, personally.

I also find it kind of amusing how much hatred is being thrown around at scriers when off hand, in all my time playing on EFU, I can count maybe 4 or 5 PCs who have ever achieved IC means to be mad awesome with the skill. Or at least those who RP'd being scriers.

That's because you can't count them and any wizard with an int buff has a huge DC on this in the first place. Besides, this was only put in two months ago and you played maybe one PC in that time, so claiming "in all your time" is just as silly as Egon posting in a mechanical thread.

[Paha]

Scrying has been around for about half a year already, and so far it has only made few to jump the gun at times. There really has not been even a handful of scryers or real diviners around, and I personally feel it's good. I'm fully open to ideas of polishing it if DM's figure good ways to it.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Everyone in the area should get a save, and the scryer should first have to use a tool on someone (which would OOCly signify them taking a lock of hair, or small belonging, or getting permission, etc) before being able to scry said target.

I was thinking this very thing.  There's a lot you could do with this to make scrying more flavourful and PnP-y.  

The tool could be used in multiple ways.  To start, the tool can be used on a character by the scryer himself, allowing him to be scried with a low dc.

Other options could be used by the scryer or anyone else, like snaffle a piece of clothing or lock of hair.  A spot vs pickpocket check could determine whether the char getting tooled has an option to allow or prevent this.  Some people will probably think this should be done before they can scry at all, but I wouldn't want a cool spell never used because it's too hard to cast.

The same could go for blood from a volunteer or somebody subdued.

Each item makes the DC harder, and is hours of fun for the scryer and his cronies/minions.

[Ebok]

I think the OP is more concerned with getting horrifically raped by a wizard lead ganksquad of doom whom scry his location without ever having met him than his messages being intercepted.

Which as Howland pointed out, isn't allowed. Scrying is not something that can be preformed on just anyone you see walking down the street, and the DMs are already working on ways to enforce this with scripting (if I understood his post).

[Talir]

I've deleted three posts from this discussion. There are a few others I am wary of. Keep this civil, guys, and adhere to the suggestion guidelines.

There is no doubt to it that scrying has its positive and negative attributes but in no means does this make a rogue useless for information gathering purposes. I've on PCs seen and assisted in both scrying and information gathering, and it's not the monster everyone thinks it is. People rewarded with their own means of scrying tend to be people we can trust and so far they've not proven us wrong.

[Egon the Monkey]

Perhaps it would be good to explain how the save is calculated? Is it a straight-up Will save? Is it mind affecting? Are there other factors that make it easier to duck? Since you don't see the save, players are taking guesses.

As for scrying foci, they are not that common in the environment and not accessible to just anyone in a DM faction (I know nothing about the current Stygian HQ, but I can't see a bunch of mage-scorners having a Focus for example). When a team I was with thought of using one to locate an NPC (with DM oversight), we had to trek across half the server. For someone without a focus of their own, you need to know exactly when a meeting's going down and be able to rush to a focus along with a bodyguard. If I was playing a really paranoid PC, I'd send a spy or assassin to the most accessible focus too.

@Liah:
Yeah, but those are rare compared to Seeing devices, costly, and a very expensive counter to totally illogical situations like people stealthing *in chairs you wan't to sit in*. I've seen some amazingly nonsensical stealthing situations, where I've been able to direct a Fireball onto a target accurately without being able to see them. The idea was to be able to catch PCs who have given away their location ICly but due to mechanics remain undetectable.

Without dragging this offtopic, the point is it's possible to get stealth so high you need good Detect to have a chance at catching someone, so why should Will saves and Scrying be any different. Serves PCs right for assuming PFX and Clarity negate the need for Will. That said, best to wait and see where things gowith the change to likely lower the DC/block PCs based on unfamiliarity. There's an argument though for more Ward Area loot turning up, or for scrolls to be sold at the more reasonable price of 450 GP by merchants.

Could Ward Area perhaps be changed to make you lose the spell, and have to save versus something irritating like a 2d6 round -1 INT/CHA drain (which would cost you another spell)? it would make scryers more wary and the spell a more offputting counter than "Well I'll just scry someone else".

And it's fine Talir. I admit that I use bizarre concepts like maths, post formatting, referencing and logic, which have no place in a mechanics thread. People should call me out on that shit.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Agreed with just coming out and explaining how saves are calculated.  As more wizards die out or retire it will stop becoming IC knowledge anyway.

[Capricious]

The will save is calculated like any other spell. How the other stuff works, detection, spellcraft rolls, etc., the players of the wizards don't know that either. We don't see the saves, we don't know what the subject rolled or their modifier, we only know what our DC should be using the normal calculations that every spell uses.

[Random_White_Guy]

That's because you can't count them and any wizard with an int buff has a huge DC on this in the first place. Besides, this was only put in two months ago and you played maybe one PC in that time, so claiming "in all your time" is just as silly as Egon posting in a mechanical thread.

Why I never. In all my time on the EFU forums I've never been personally attacked during a conversation.

The fact is all this simple hostility over people spying is the point of spying. Anything that stops plot-hoarders and drags information to light is a -good thing-. I've seen criminals and more make up thickly veiled conversations full of innuendo and more to get a point across when they were afraid of being scried. It's like worrying someone is wearing a wire.

[AllMYBudgies]

I think that the massive paranoia that scrying causes should really be kept in character. I'm not quite sure I even understand why anybody would take an ooc stance against the spell, or the usage of it.  A majority of those that practice the spell in game do so with decorum and solid rp, and as Howland said there is a means of enforcing this in the pipeline. More flavourful additions to EFU are always a bonus, its nice to see diviners having a real point now, and a presence in the game world.

We all know the measures that need to be taken to avoid scrying, and if you intend on speaking about plot heavy stuff then get to it and defend yourself. It isn't an infallible resource for garnering information from characters, and the level of paranoia that it creates should surely be embraced as a plot altering and driving tool.

[Capricious]

The fact is all this simple hostility over people spying is the point of spying. Anything that stops plot-hoarders and drags information to light is a -good thing-. I've seen criminals and more make up thickly veiled conversations full of innuendo and more to get a point across when they were afraid of being scried. It's like worrying someone is wearing a wire.

Yes, and this also brings up the point that the most dangerous people to a plotter are the people who they're plotting with. My rogue was far more successful as an information broker than my diviner is for this very reason.

An amusing side-note, some of the absolutely most incriminating things my diviner has learned haven't come from scrying, they've come from informants.

[Udenbur]

I have not read through all of the posts, though I will state my two greatest concerns, coming from personal experience.

- My monster PC crew was being scried upon from p. much day 1, before we had virtually interacted with anyone. Just picking a name and wha-blam, scrying upon him is too powerful and easily abused. Some tagging system comes to mind.


- Quickly determining the location of those few you want to gank and sprinting or teleporting over. Since this happened to us near enough every time we logged on, I know just how sour it gets.

The spell in itself is great, but it could do with some warranties other than the (dare I say it?) conventional ways to counter scrying. Putting a greater cost to scrying wouldn't be a poor idea at all.

[Capricious]

Udenbur, how do you know this is the case? My diviner never once scryed on the drow PCs, since she never had direct knowledge of them beyond knowing there were drow about, which is certainly not enough to chose them as a target for the spell.

I agree this is bad form to scry like that, but I'm not so certain it's nearly as common a thing as is represented.