Additional spell adjustments

[Anonymous Bosch]

That's the thing, Egon.  Mind affecting covers a lot of spells, and some are devastating when they work.  PfA just seems cheap though.
I'm morally against anything that is prejudiced towards TN.

What makes a man turn neutral?

[Drakill Tannan]

Egon-

That would be fine for an arena server, but there are NPCs here also. Why whenever mecahnics are discussed is PvP the only thing taken into acount? Quests are not just "Get supplies for PvP", they are part of the fun too and there are people who enjoy them.

[MrGrendel]

Quests are not just "Get supplies for PvP", they are part of the fun too and there are people who enjoy them.

Lots of goblin NPCs spoiling your fun quest loadout of hold person and PhK by running around with Protection from Good, are they?

Mind affecting covers a lot of spells, and some are devastating when they work. PfA just seems cheap though.

Foiling a hold person with PfA bought you a round of time. Getting HP off buys you up to ten times as much. One cheap turn deserves another.

[BeteNoire]

This would be a universal "nerf" for all classes and is not a buff to any single class, although the usage of mind effecting spells may seem as if it empowers certain classes, it also allows those classes that cast this to be vulnerable in a relative manner.

The truth of the matter is that people can run around on 6 or 8 wisdom characters with horrid will saves and completely ignore it. I did it on a prominent figure myself and many others have as well. It's overpowered for the magic level we utilize here and an abused luxury I think.

@Egon - Yes, most suggestions stem from the usage of their abilities and spells. This is in fact my third Cleric capable of casting many of those spells and I have played just about every other class. Now I  toss my opinion in on a few of the spells as a player who certainly sees them far more often than you do and actively uses spells beyond the "norm".

[Egon the Monkey]

A slight tweak to the OP's suggestion:
How about Protection From Alignment applies +10 vs Mind, and Magic Circle From Alignment applies Immunity? That way you need to use a L3 not a L1 spell for immunity. Low will PCs can still use PfX as an effective but not invulnerable defence, but also the rarer Magic Circle loot as a more powerful one rather than just saving it for when you want to quest without a caster. This further means that higher level casters will have a better defence than say a Fighter 4 Cleric 3 who can cast PfX. Finally, this means that a quest full of Mind saves isnt TPK-Ville because a buffing caster CAN drop immunity on his team.

I think one problem is that relatively weak spells like Bane and Doom are blocked by something mostly used to stop Win Buttons like Hold Person and PhK. Perhaps even strip "mind affecting" as a descriptor from the weaker spells, leaving PfX as a defence against one-shot spells, so long as you can keep it up.

[FlowerEatingElf]

How about stop whining about changing shit constantly and instead just play and have fun? Nerf this, nerf that, change this, change that.

It's getting old and tedious.

[Drakill Tannan]

Lots of goblin NPCs spoiling your fun quest loadout of hold person and PhK by running around with Protection from Good, are they?

The thing is, in PvE there are two situations when it comes to npcs and mind affecting spells, either:

-They don't do a thing (You have PFX)
-They rape you within seconds (You don't)
-They dispell you at times so you have to be carefull (You have numerous casts of PFX/Potions, else the second point is what happens)

The dispell thing may be a middle point, but it affects other stuff as well, namely buffs. If a quest was wished to involve mind affecting spells without dispelling, it would be imposible. Egon is right in his point as well, Wisdom is almost completly a roleplaying stat, there is no point in a will save when you are inmune to ANYTHING that triggers a will save even though you may be a level 2 barbarian with 8 wisdom. Furthermore feats like iron will also become quite useless, and  items with +will saves too, in PvE.

+10 saves vs X would make characters with decent wisdom and say, iron will or a few +will items practically inmune to mind affecting, but would leave 8 wisdomers vulnerable as they should be. However it would be a middlepoint between my points 1 & 2, since with such a save they could easily save half the time, that way mind affecting spells in quests are still an issue, not just a visual effect, but they are not as devastating.

The server is kinda relying in PFX granting inmunity, maybe adding a few +will items would be required, also spells such as "clarity" or "mind blank" would actually be used now.

Overhall i think it would make the server more fun.

[One_With_Nature]

I would like to point out again that PfA is only protection from a single alignment on the scale i.e. Evil,Good,Chaos,Law.

Will saves are one of the most important and devestating saves in nwn. Mind affecting and death effects. If you're a mage and your going to open with a mind spell unless you catch someone unaware then you're ultimately going to fail.

By changing PfA also every single spell involving will saves would need to be changed to deal weith balance issues. Just think a level 6 cleric casts extended hold person on you, thats a single level 3 slot for 12 rounds of free actions on said target.

Not everyone is going around constantly with PfA up, especially non-caster classes. Its all situational. Dispel is in the game for a reason and there is no way of telling what alignment someone is unless you're a paladin and can at least detect evil so you still have to make an educated guess as to what alignment to protect from.

This change would basically make caster classes even more op then they already are. Lets face it a fighter even with high wisdom and Iron will is still going to have shit will saves so everything becomes weaker and casters become more powerful and those with access to Spellcraft.

Just for clarification: A buffed caster using mind spells with a focus in a paticular school will have a dc of around 20-26.
Lets say fighter X has fear cast on him and he has +10vs mind spells and has a typical will save of say 6. He still has a 50% chance of being ultimately screwed over by a single spell. This would be opppose to a wizards 10 will. +10vs spells and +5vs spells from spellcraft.

Speaking from experience, mages can quite happily destroy multiple targets in very few rounds. So this suggestion to me is just ridiculus for this setting.

[Morsyn Redtower]

Mind-effecting spells often do not scale well, they either fail or allows an enemy to be crushed completely. This is why immunity is a completely appropriate type of defense.
 
PfA can also already be dispelled quite easily, so it definitely does not need any additional nerfing in PvP.
 
Player casters are already savvy enough, or should be, to cast dispel magic before their mind spells... not only because of PfA.
 
However, if this is an issue in PvE... Then the simple solution is to add more dispel magic to situations in PvE where mind-effecting spells come into play via spells, traps, etc.
 
This solves what is being described as the "problem" in this thread without throwing a huge wrench into pvp balance.

[MrGrendel]

Mind-effecting spells often do not scale well, they either fail or allow an enemy to be crushed completely. This is why immunity is a completely appropriate type of defense.

PfA can also already be dispelled quite easily, so it definitely does not need any additional nerfing in PvP.

Player casters are already savvy enough, or should be, to cast dispel magic before their mind spells... not only because of PfA.

However, if this is an issue in PvE... Then the simple solution is to add more dispel magic to situations in PvE where mind-effecting spells come into play, via spells, dispel traps in combat areas, etc.

This solves what is being described as the "problem" in this thread without throwing a huge wrench into pvp balance.

Edit: Additionally, drop a lot more potions of the radical soul. >_>

[Drakill Tannan]

Except that dispell screws you more than with just mind affecting-protection buffs. Dispell also means goodbye to bull's strenght, magic weapon, endure elements, you name it, that can make quests VERY dificult.

Also consider the necesary stuff to get a DC of 26, it would have to come from a min-maxed sun elf wizard who happened to be buffed, level 9 and specialised on the spellschool (For hold, or level 8 for phantasmal killer, level 8 can also be for a 24 DC hold person), also that is not extended, unless your wizard is level 11. That is an extreme level of specialization, and yet the fighter with a potion nearly as common as ale would have 50% chance of ignoring the spell completly.

And if that the fighter gets his 50% chance right, he drinks a clarity potion and it's inmune for enough time to get to the wizard and spam knockdown on him. How much chances does a wizard have of surviving that?

EDIT: Actually i can only think of one way to get a higher DC, that is having a specialized enchanter druid or level 10, maxed wis and max owls wisdom + owl's insight for a total of 28 DC- that is the most powerfull DC anyone will get below level 12, and yet the fighter would have a 40% chance of ignoring the most specialized encharter in the history of EFU.

[Caddies]

I'm trying to understand the balance issue with PfA blocking mind affecting spells? Its done that since EFU's inception and as far as I recall there hasn't been a single problem. PfA is easily dispellable, especially in potion form.

This would just be one more buff for wizards, who are the most common casters of, and have the most to gain from, mind-affecting spells.

Most of the other suggestions I generally like.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Except that dispell screws you more than with just mind affecting-protection buffs. Dispell also means goodbye to bull's strenght, magic weapon, endure elements, you name it, that can make quests VERY dificult.

Also consider the necesary stuff to get a DC of 26, it would have to come from a min-maxed sun elf wizard who happened to be buffed, level 9 and specialised on the spellschool (For hold, or level 8 for phantasmal killer, level 8 can also be for a 24 DC hold person), also that is not extended, unless your wizard is level 11. That is an extreme level of specialization, and yet the fighter with a potion nearly as common as ale would have 50% chance of ignoring the spell completly.

And if that the fighter gets his 50% chance right, he drinks a clarity potion and it's inmune for enough time to get to the wizard and spam knockdown on him. How much chances does a wizard have of surviving that?

EDIT: Actually i can only think of one way to get a higher DC, that is having a specialized enchanter druid or level 10, maxed wis and max owls wisdom + owl's insight for a total of 28 DC- that is the most powerfull DC anyone will get below level 12, and yet the fighter would have a 40% chance of ignoring the most specialized encharter in the history of EFU.

Yes dispel magic strips most spells. Thats why its so good. Dispel does not have a limit on how many spells it can dispel from a target, a dice is rolled for every single spell. PfA has the easiest DC possible to dispel. This means that whether the target is buffed with other stuff or not has no effect on you casting dispel magic to remove thier mind immunity. So I really have no idea why you mentioned that early on in your post.

A mage can very easily destroy a fighter in a single round. Taking proper precautions will make you incredibly difficult to hit. If they even survive long enough to make a roll to attempt to hit you through your spells. If you're caught unprepared you lose. Simple as. Casters require prepartion. It's a trade off. If you don't like that aspect, don't play them.

Oh and a level 7 wizard or level 5 cleric can cast extended hold person. (it goes into a level 4 slot, or 3 slot for clerics)

[Drakill Tannan]

Not with a DC of 26. (For that you need hold monster, wich can't be extended as a wizard untill level 11)

[TheImpossibleDream]

Not with a DC of 26. (For that you need hold monster, wich can't be extended as a wizard untill level 11)

Your dc would be only 2 lower even 50% chance to resist the "best enchanter" would be too little as the "best enchanter" is too retarded to use his spells properly. Moral of the story is that if you want to play a caster you need be clever. Casting one spell from a school thats entire flavor is "mega crippling/auto kill or nothing at all" without taking the time to ensure your targets protections are down is pretty dumb.