Traps on quests

[Capricious]

Honestly, these kinds of traps are rare, and only in a couple quests. If you are really so afraid of them, or don't want to wait on your rogue, the alternative is to go do a different quest.

[Anonymous Bosch]

In the olden days before efu came to be this was how an adventure would go. You would go into the quest area. A rogue would go on ahead, you would wait about 15 minutes for the initial report, he would tell you he disabled two traps and there are 15 orcs in the next room.

You would go in, kill the orcs, then the rogue would go on ahead. The quests themselves were very small, but basically took about 2 hours a pop due to requiring a rogue to scour the entire area for fear of instant death traps.

On occasion you would have to cancel the quest because the rogue accedentally tripped a trap and killed himself, or worse missed one and the entire party died.

I can never recall having much fun waiting in silence for a rogue to report back. Mind you I'm sure it was fun and exciting for the rogue knowing that he could instantly die if he takes a wrong step or an enemy makes a spot/listen check.

What I'm saying is you speak of something you've never experienced and in thoery it sounds fun, but it isn't, it's boring, incredibly boring. Ten times worse than wordlessly smashing through a quest. In fact the only difference is there are a few words traded in order to relay tactical data. Which is hardly what you could call exciting stuff after the 3rd run through the quest.

That's a pretty grim outlook.  I've done that quite a bit as a rogue and as the guy waiting for the rogue, and it depended very much on how efficient the rogue player was about going about his business.  In general though, I do agree that i's too long and boring to do a whole quest this way.  Imagine the brood temple! >_<

Wouldn't hurt to have small areas where this kind of tactic is necessary though.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Honestly, these kinds of traps are rare, and only in a couple quests. If you are really so afraid of them, or don't want to wait on your rogue, the alternative is to go do a different quest.

Yes I agree just avoid the quest entirely. Waste of a quest area though, considering the majority of folk don't like death and dislike waiting around for a very specific and rarely played class, that if played badly could result in the same death as if they were not present.

[Capricious]

There needs to be more quests that require rogues, not less. If that means a couple quests are done less because of it, then so be it. If a quest is not done at all then that quest will be removed or changed, but I hardly think that's the case.

Also, any quest played badly can result in death. If the rogue fails the checks and dies that's part of the game. I don't see why success should be assured simply because a rogue came along on a quest where there's dangerous traps.

Just because some players avoid a quest because they feel it's too risky doesn't mean all players avoid that quest.

[TheMacPanther]

I think of traps like monsters. Monsters that can do serious damage if dealt with wrong. It's the same idea as anything else, you prepare for it and they don't cause many problems. You don't and you eat shit.

I say remove all monsters from quests and just add a little button that you push for loot and xp. Thats sure to make things exciting, interesting and fun without any strategy or brain-thinking...using that brain thing hurts.

[Egon the Monkey]

Powerful traps don't add any more challenge or requirement for skill (by the player) than moderately powerful traps. They just wipe your ass out if you trip them and slow you down if you notice them. They are simply checkpoints. The seriously powerful traps will fugue you right through your preparations if your scout isn't good or a summon rushes, someone gets bumped etc.

On the other hand a spaced out field of irritating but not instantly lethal traps you can't simply disable or run a rat over changes the nature of the battle. You have to pick where you fight, save someone if they get stunned, avoid the cloud of poison if someone DOES trigger one, and generally react to the traps, rather than merely slowing while someone disarms them. It makes a trapper feel like they're a helpful addition, not a required device. They also provide a source of debuff traps for trap users to harvest, whereas you aren't allowed to harvest Deadly and some Strong traps.

Powerful AOE traps are in at least three of the higher level quests, Capricious. They are breeding ;) . Having more won't lead to more rogues, just more trap skills on the inevitable fighter/rogue multiclasses. On the other hand *positive* reasons to play a skilled rogue will make people roll them up if they see it as a ticket to be useful by getting more treasure out of quests and so on. Players cope with negative reasons to take a class along by doing the minimum. Positive reasons to bring an expert means you want to play one to take advantage and enjoy it (see how the interest in bards went up when songbooks gave them interesting situational abilities).

[Twelve]

What I'm saying is you speak of something you've never experienced and in thoery it sounds fun, but it isn't, it's boring, incredibly boring.

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highlighted for emphasis.

Now normally, I would go into some long explanation of how you have no idea what, I have or have not experienced, but for sake of keeping this on topic I will say, that while it is boring for the front-liner it is one of the true times a rogue is worth his weight in gold. And I would argue it is no more boring than the poor player of buff mage #154 that is following the tanks invisibly.

As explained in other threads the rogue is underpowered and under appreciated. It is these few instances where the rogue is truely in his element.

Or so I have read and been told. I have never experienced it myself.
 
/end good natured sarcasim
 
In all fairness however, I am in agreement with more things that take out the buffed tank, sticking his fingers in his ears, closing his eyes and stomping real hard to see if there is a trap is a good thing.

[TheImpossibleDream]

There needs to be more quests that require rogues, not less. If that means a couple quests are done less because of it, then so be it. If a quest is not done at all then that quest will be removed or changed, but I hardly think that's the case.

Also, any quest played badly can result in death. If the rogue fails the checks and dies that's part of the game. I don't see why success should be assured simply because a rogue came along on a quest where there's dangerous traps.

Just because some players avoid a quest because they feel it's too risky doesn't mean all players avoid that quest.

More quests that require rogues? Why? There are no quests that require barbarians, sure they're useful, but a fighter or cleric can do thier job just as well. Why do quests specifically need that one particular class? As I recall, aside from some low level stuff for ranger and druid there are very few class specific quests.

Do you mean quests that require disable trap skills? In which case this is easily achieved via multiclass without the need for a gimpy pure rogue. Quests don't need to be adjusted to help rogues, rogues need to be adjusted to help rogues.

What you don't seem to understand is that when things go badly in a fight, there are things you can do, potions you can drink, actions you can take, you have a couple of seconds to act. When a trap is triggered, it comes from nowhere and the effect is instant. Moderate damage traps that target only the person that tripped them are fine, but aoe heavy damage traps that can one shot at a range are just not fun at all.

Anybody who willfully goes on a quest knowing they could instantly die to something completely out of thier hands without them even seeing it coming is insane.

[TheImpossibleDream]

highlighted for emphasis.

Now normally, I would go into some long explanation of how you have no idea what, I have or have not experienced, but for sake of keeping this on topic I will say, that while it is boring for the front-liner it is one of the true times a rogue is worth his weight in gold. And I would argue it is no more boring than the poor player of buff mage #154 that is following the tanks invisibly.

As explained in other threads the rogue is underpowered and under appreciated. It is these few instances where the rogue is truely in his element.

Or so I have read and been told. I have never experienced it myself.
 
/end good natured sarcasim
 
In all fairness however, I am in agreement with more things that take out the buffed tank, sticking his fingers in his ears, closing his eyes and stomping real hard to see if there is a trap is a good thing.

Three to seven other people should not need to be bored simply so that a rogue can shine. Looking at your example I can see some fundamental flaws in your understanding of a proper group mechanic.

A proper wizard always has his handsful in a battle, in fact when I play a wizard I find myself busying about the party even more so than when I play a "tank" monitering health and ensuring buffs are maintained, tossing the occasional offensive spell where required.

A proper tank has quite a lot to think about, keeping targets attacking him, destroying priority targets, maintaining essential buffs on dispel via potion use, ensuring his flanking allies can easily access a monster without exposing themselves and above all keeping health above critical damage range of the worst opponent.

I based my evaluation of your experience level on your words alone. If you do indeed have the experience you claim then it does not show in your words. If you find playing a wizard or a fighter dull and brainless then you are most certainly doing it wrong.

Having traps on a quest that instantly kill a target dealing three digit sums does not raise appreciation for rogues in the slightest. Even if these did become prevailent then as egon stated there would simply be more of an abundance of the classic x rogue/6 fighter tank/flanker build.

[Drakill Tannan]

Quests already take long enough. I'd rather not have a rogue class than be forced to wait for one to explore and disarm all traps before we could run the quest.

[putrid_plum]

I honestly don't see how pure rogues are so gimpy as I keep reading.  I've played several and they all were very successful and fun.

[Jayde Moon]

But Plum, that's because you are mildly retarded :P

Srsly, some challenges are better meant to be overcome by a certain something in your group.

The norm is to have a lot of warrior types (tanks and slayers), supported by buffers/controllers.  But not every situation should conform its challenge rating based solely on that norm.

I mean, what if I decided to make a sorcerorX/rogueX guild (note that they are both X, which means one for one levels) and we tried taking on quests and then someone cried, "OH NOEZ... these quests REQUIRE you to have tanks.  My low HP build gets ONE SHOTTED by them zerks!  This is horribad quest building.  I suggest removing all of the Orcs from Wild Orcs."

We'd laugh them out of the community.  Now of course that's a ridiculous example/analogy... but the point is not all challenges are going to conform to fit your group and it's not up to the quest builders to conform them, it's up to the group to conform to the challenges of the quest.

[Ebok]

Alright, I can honestly see both sides of this, and I was playing the Rogue in this given event. I was hitting traps, and leading the group in most tunnels, etc. So it was more just a matter of, I went to do this, and he died to that.

The lightening traps are scary, which I think is why they are used in these particular cases. They suck to die to. It's like an instant death trap. Which makes some things ruinous to do without a Rogue, or even with one. I've been killed by lag-spiking through traps Ive already clicked disarm on.

Of course, if they dont kill you, and they arent in a combat spot, then they don't really serve as much of a deterrent. I tend to love traps and being a trapper/trapsmith, and make a habit of it.

Just my thoughts.

[One_With_Nature]

Any trap that can hit you harder then Bobo the clown is lame on quests. Imo.

[One_With_Nature]

also if fighter types were not expected to trigger the odd trap why would barbarians naturally get uncanny dodge?