Rogue Stuff

[WhySoCyrious]

Just wanted to say the new stuff for rogues is freaking badass! Non-Mechanical perks are always awesome.

Could something be done maybe to encourage more pure fighters, non-mechanically? Just too rare seen, when you can drop a level or two into another class for a full retinue of wands and such.

[Egon the Monkey]

Is this a discussion or a suggestion? The anonymous messages are definitely cool, as they allow some proper spying and remove the metagaming of "disguised voice".

Pure fighters lose out as unlike barbs and Rangers with EfU progressive bonuses, they get nothing after L4 but an earlier chance to have Imp Crit. They also have no social or support skills other than Heal, meaning all their class is devoted to combat mechanics. The following methods have been used to benefit classes on EfU before and could work as well.

• Pure Fighter/Weapon Master Only "Soldier's Gear".
• Progressive class bonuses at levels 6, 7 and 8. Either in their class skills, or in cross-class skills like Search/Spot/Social skills that they are missing and often crossclass.
• Class only quests with big rewards. For example an arena that gives Pure Fighter Only Do Not UMD equipment a few times, and is repeatable for pure fighter only supplies like 3 charge Lesser Dispel medals. The arena allows other PCs in to spectate.

Finally, what about giving pure Fighters more EFUSS points than any other class, to make up for their low Skill Points and number of class skills by using Secondary and RP skills.

[Paha]

Do note that usually weapon master will earn something relevant to their mastery, and weapon mastery indeed is very valid for a pure fighter, not so much for cross-classes. It is a huge perk in itself, in my own opinion of course.

Also they gain the bonus feats. They are one class able to sink in feats and be the real tincan warriors, unlike any other than paladin.

[Egon the Monkey]

It just seems to make more sense to me to not block Weapon Masters from using Fighter gear, when they'll pretty much always be playing pure Fighter until they get Weapon Master Levels, so they have all the feats.

And it's pure fighters, PP, not any fighters. You can get all the bonus feats you need for almost any concept with 4 Fighter levels, after that you end up thinking "er... what don't I have yet" unless you took entirely noncombat feats on 1, 3, 6. Wand access alone beats having 1-2 more feats for keeping you alive, and when the usual multiclass options come with social and other noncombat skills, it's an easy choice. "Yes, I'd like my mercenary officer to be persuasive!" "Yes, my criminal thug should be able to pick locks!" "Toot toot! I have +1 AB and damage!" (Yes, I hate fighterbards who don't do anything bardic. No, I will never stop mocking them).

The proof is in the number of pure paladins, rangers and barbs you see at high levels compared to the number of pure fighters as opposed to fighter rogues or fighter bards. All those classes benefit from a lack of multiclass either from their class abilities (Spells, rage, EfU bonuses for higher levels) or that they already come with social or detection skills, and don't need to multiclass for it. Fighter is a very widely used class and players succeed well with it, but of all the prominent fighters I can think of, they've all been multiclasses.

tl;dr
Anything a pure fighter can do, a multiclass can do better. They're hugely more popular and all the famous EfU Fighters I can think of have had levels in something else.

[Spiffy Has]

This topic is about rogues, not fighters, Egon, start a separate thread.

I'd advise Rogues being able to 'start rumors', and able to access a special sending system that only they can hear. Any multiclassing immediately denies you the ability to hear it!

The rumor thread would be supposed by players who would create 'in game threads' which all rogues can access.

Example-

[Jim the Rogue opens crafting menu and accesses the 'rogue thread', and makes a rumor.

"Jimminy Crackett is selling cheap booze in the narrows!"

Stygians are looking for albert einstein."]

Etc...

As for the rogue sending system, it can be accessed via a special sewer system that has a bunch of sewer kids that run around giving messages to certain rogues...

[Egon the Monkey]

Could something be done maybe to encourage more pure fighters, non-mechanically?

Whoops. On-topic.

Rogue sending system would seem kind of limited, as pure rogues are a smaller pool of potential PCs than Dominion, Docks or Wilds. Plus they're unlikely to be mostly allied, but rather across all factions. Do you mean more like Whispering Wind as an effect? "Deliver this message to this PC within town?"

[WhySoCyrious]

Actually it was about fighters, or rogues, or anything really! Just wanted to start a discussion on ideas. The thing with fighters is EFU is so consumable heavy. Potions are swell but it almost seems masochistic to try and play a pure fighter with so many multiclass options available to make a fighter's job so much easier. Wands, scrolls, umd, items, bardsongs, self-buffs the list goes on. The roguestuff was more of a reference point. There's some cool stuff around that rogues can do, that just seem "Roguish" and since it requires levels it seems that being rogue heavy is the way to go. Granted a 6 fighter 1 bard is still "Fighter heavy" it has access to scrolls and wands and things a regular fighter couldn't and that's just kinda weird feeling. Pure fighters should be mean, well trained, disciplined, juggernauts. Something non-mechanical to make up for giving up dispel wands, etc.

[Bearic]

I like pure fighter, easy to manage, and you can roleplay quite a bit with the extra feats. They also can dump skill points in lore too, and not just Healing, which opens some doors. I don't mind the idea of having extra stuff to add more variety, though.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Pure fighter is great!

I can pretty much garantuee you, that anyone who thinks they're very limited or dull generally puts 13+ points in int purely for a certain feat! You can do some really wild and fun things with a fighter if you can learn to live without this feat!

[Egon the Monkey]

It's true they're a very flexible single class with regards to combat styles, but that's missing the point, Naga. It's that they have little in the way of class skills or skillpoints to round out the PC beyond "hit them or shoot them" and no real class-specific gear. However, Fighter goes great with a level in any other class. It's the EfU equivalent of bread, better with a sandwich filling :D. So, everyone multiclasses to get some extra abilities and consumables to use. Though arguably the free feats and only really needing Str and Con make them good for cross-classing and taking skill bonus feats for non-combat skills.

The opposite of a pure rogue, who has a lot going for them RP/support wise but has traditionally been outshined by Rogue/something else multiclasses as they bring so much more combat power (especially vs unsneakable stuff) and still get the same support and RP abilities. These rogue bonuses are helping IMO though. I want to play a pure rogue now for plotting.

The argument's not " Pure Fighters suck without expertise and a bastard sword". It's "Unlike all other classes, there's no good reason not to multiclass". Sure, it's possible to expand a pure fighter to be, say a diplomat or trader using cross-class, I mean I did it on a pure Ranger and I had more attributes to worry about. It's just why would most players bother when 3 Rogue will allow you to have good scores on what your concept is supposed to be good at, and have sneaks and UMD too?

Edit @Naga:
I know that, but you can have all that and more by multiclassing. There's less reason not to take the extra levels in Fighter after 4 than there it to lose 1-2 feats and 1 AB for more options both in combat and out.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Um dude they get an extra feat every 2 levels and max bab...

So they basically get fully customizable perks

[WhySoCyrious]

Fighters don't need expertise to be useful in any sense of the idea. A bow or Crossbow using fighter can be ruthless and brutal on a quest or in PvP with all the nice arrow drops, if they spec and focus in Longbow.

My thought was simply Wizards and etc. have custom spells, Bards have books, Barbs get Rage and Damage perks, Rogues get new stuff, Stealthers get Bilby's, Rangers get speed boosts, because that stuff all makes sense for them to have in the setting and adds some seriously cool depth to the class.  Then they could get alchemy and herbalism which is intensely cool, and more.

It just seems like there's very little, either mechanically unique to EFU or setting specific perks that make fighters more appealing for folks to play, and frankly that's kinda unfortunate. Fighter has just as much diversity in concept as any other class but people usually take 4 levels of it as "Combat training" and leave it as is, then take something else. Not blaming anyone for anything, and in fact it makes a lot of sense that it's the way to go. It's cost efficient and gives a lot of RP depth to a character to multiclass sometimes.

[Egon the Monkey]

A bow or Crossbow using fighter can be ruthless and brutal on a quest or  in PvP with all the nice arrow drops, if they spec and focus in  Longbow.

That's true to a degree, but an even bigger than usual argument for multiclass because you really need Dispel wands as the only counter for Blur short of a Dmloot longbow.

[Underbard]

Still, it is kind of hard to see giving pure fighters more love because they are, after all, fighters.  The extra feats are there for a reason.
Of course, I prefer to play straight fighter, rogue. or whatever, but that is just me.
I know full well that multiclass is there for a reason, and in many cases, a multiclass makes perfect sense, but in an RP world, should a fighter really take a level of rogue or three?  Gotta play what makes sense for your PC, not for your PVP build.

[Skanky]

Is it possible for the game mechanics to allow a rogue to put things in a persons bag with out PP skill or just take stuff out with PP skills?

If not would a DM be required to support a rouge with NO PP skills in slipping a letter or something into someone's hand or bag or would the rouge have to have PP in order for this to be supported by a DM?