Rogue Perks

[Garem]

Pure rogues tend to have a tough time on EfU. They're decent at a great many things, but being only decent can often lead to great danger.

Perhaps a solution to this dilemma could be adding in perks that are only effective for pure rogue PCs and would be disabled should any other character class be taken. Here are some examples I've thought of.

Bear in mind, these may seem rather powerful boosts, but this is taking the place of a perk that makes other classes more powerful too and only works for a pure rogues. These should not be compared to other perks.

While discussing balance is important, I'd prefer that conversation first bring up pro/cons about this method of adding more power to the pure rogue class.

Espionage Expert
+4 Hide/MS, +2 Listen, +2 Spot and -1 AB

You're a finely tuned spy, but your concentration on digging for clues (or keeping others from doing so) has made you a less capable fighter when things turn sour.

Thug Life
+1 AB +4 HP

You're life has been rough, but you've managed to kick right back. Having to fight for your next meal has made you better at, well, fighting.

Treasure Hunter
+2 Search, +2 Spot, +2 Lore, +1 UMD

You've searched high and low for Faerun's greatest treasures. You're out to strike it rich, and you're certain that the motherload is just under the next rock, under the next X mark, or deep in the bowels of that ancient ruin. Your familiarity with the ancient artifacts has also made you more adept at using them.

Diplomatic Nature, Pathological Liar, or Intimidating Presence
+5 Persuade, -4 Intimidate or +5 Bluff -2 Pers. & -2 Intim. or +5 Intimidate -4 Pers.

You've got a special knack for getting your way in a deal and you work that to your advantage. Unfortunately, you're a one-trick pony.

[Relinquish]

Bubble bursting?
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47780

[Garem]

I like those ideas too, although the approach is different. Perks add customization, VP's suggestions effect ALL rogues. Our purpose is the same.

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

Wish I'd read over this before I posted instantly.

I think it'd be better to have some flavorful advantage to being a rogue as opposed to pure mechanical advantages.

We're looking into it for what it's worth.

[Caddies]

Johannes said he didn't have anything further planned when he was talking in IRC!

So FWIW I'll post my own recommendations;

Hardcoded Class Bonuses

5th level: 10% movement speed in city areas, +4 stealth in city areas
6th level: +4 detection in city areas
7th level: 20% movement speed in city areas

Perks

GUILDMASTER (5 rogue levels minimum)
Whether criminal or mercantile, you lead a guild. Through intimdation and guile, you've come into a reliable income with which to help expand your guild's influence...
[+3 Intimidate, +3 Bluff, 10 gold/hour wage]

MASTER DUELIST (5 rogue levels minimum)
You have dedicated yourself to the art of dueling.
[-1 AB, +4 Parry, +3 Taunt, +2 Tumble, Dodge Feat]

ENFORCER (5 rogue levels minimum)
You don't take guff from nobody, and when you do a job, you do it well. Your boss appreciates this, and has hired you to do the dirty work...
[WF: Club, WS: Club, +20 HP, +3 Intimidate, +2 Taunt]

MAGEKILLER (5 rogue levels minimum)
You specialize in the removal of arcane pests, learning more and more of their tricks of survival after every encounter...
[+10 Spellcraft, +2 saves vs mind affecting, +3 UMD]

SPYMASTER (5 rogue levels minimum)
You're at the top of an elaborate chain of spies and infiltrators, nothing in the city escapes you.
[+2 search, +3 Spot, +4 Listen, access to special rumors?]

--

I had similar ones to Garem's 'Espionage Expert' and 'Treasure Hunter' too, so I'll give those another shoutout.

[Johannes]

Maybe. If some of these perks prevented multiclassing as well! I can already see a few nuts multiclass builds coming from that.

[Spiffy Has]

And you can just level to 5, die, and take another class. <_>

[MrGrendel]

Rogues are one of the most diverse classes. Instead of a system of giving rogues hard-coded bonuses at 5, 7, 9 etc, kinda like barbs get now... how about adding more rogue-specific perks that are really good, and letting them also choose these perks at 7, 8 and 9 instead of only 5? This way you could customize your rogue a little more to your tastes rather than make them all "city rangers." Anyway, just some random ideas here. The movement speed/detection in cities etc could all be perks to choose from too.
 

Master Poisoner
Years of experience with sinister substances have given you a different kind of "green thumb."
When applying poisons, you use your rogue levels x2 instead of your dexterity bonus. Additionally, every time you rest, you take the time to concoct some makeshift poison from what you have at hand.
 
Agent of Repose
You always ran with the undead-hunting crowd. All the time spent lurking in crypts has made you odd as well as oddly-skilled.
-2 to bluff and persuade, -1 to reflex. For every two rogue levels, you gain +1 AB vs. the undead.

[VanillaPudding]

They really need something like these. Caddies ideas are great. The current changes to them did nothing to really help them at all sadly.

[Johannes]

I don't know how you reason that not knowing any creature's spot/listen skill isn't useful for a stealth PC, let alone knowing someone's current/maximum hitpoints at all times! It's not an insignificant boost.

[Paha]

It is extremely useful info. You know exactly how tough/dangerous threat your target is. If you don't want it, suit yourself. I'll take it.

[Garem]

I love the specialization ideas! Those kinds of things are exactly what I mean. I have balance concerns for pretty much all of the suggestions (even my own!), but that can be hashed out later amongst the DM team.

As Johannes says, allowing multiclassing could make some of these just a little too awesome. I'd like to see these to be pure rogue ONLY perks. That way they can be a little bit better than having to balance for, say, a 5 rogue/4 fighter, which we all know can be a pretty devastating combination.

[VanillaPudding]

I don't know how you reason that not knowing any creature's spot/listen skill isn't useful for a stealth PC, let alone knowing someone's current/maximum hitpoints at all times! It's not an insignificant boost.

No one said they aren't useful. It's a nice touch but does nothing mechanically to help them. It's just as easy to assume they have a moderate spot / listen because, as stated here or elsewhere recently, you need well over 30/30 to even be safe against people with no investment.

You can assume the same sort of things with the HP table as well. Add in the fact that these use heal skill (???), a skill they don't afford well if they want to remain fully effective in the first place, especially non 14 Int human rogues. They need some raw mechanical aid, not lengthy algorithms of flavor that provide information someone can simply assume and be just as safe!

[SanTelmo]

I think the adds Johannes has put into this are useful but I would like to see some of these/other rogue perks added. I think rogues could use some other class-related perks than stealth as it for me at least was pretty hard to find any of the perks fitting (still isn't).

I know not all rogues focus on spot/heal because the skill points are quite limited, you're expected and you want to be good at everything. My suggestion to improve better access to this would be that maybe the check which scans what amount of gold someone carries could be half pick pocket, half spot or something.

Some combination of skills in other of the new tools could be useful too I guess (like tracking uses many skills which all count how well you track. Lore here too, appraise?) Might be silly suggestions in wrong topic but here they are.

[Caddies]

Maybe. If some of these perks prevented multiclassing as well! I can already see a few nuts multiclass builds coming from that.

Yeah, these would ideally be for pure rogues only. I only listed 5 rogue levels minimum because L5 is when you get your perks. Ideally this would be for at least 7 or 8 levels of rogue, if that was somehow possible to script!