Spell Changes

[Caddies]

One tiny note, 16 rounds isn't a very long time.  Maybe a bit over two minutes.

16 rounds per level.

@ Garem- Any decent wizard, even ones who have access to illusion spells, will get both a wand of invis and a wand of improved invis eventually. Not to mention the countless invis potions. Its not really as great as you make it out to be.

Point in fact, of course, that a wizard who sees your rogue stealthing  around isn't particularly scary unless they're wielding PhK (which  diviners don't).

You couldn't be further from the truth. There isn't a single class in the game more terrifying for a pure rogue than a wizard who can detect them, PHK or not.

And about any arguments regarding duration, suffice to say that 16 rounds per level for a single cast would be enough for any PvP situation if the target is known to be lurking (scrying - another diviner perk comes in handy here). And if you're not sure where your target it, just queue up two casts and roll out.

--

Didn't want this to turn into a rambling debate about rogues or how strong/weak diviners are, but there were alot of misinformed opinions that needed correcting. Anyway I know the DMs have discussed these spell changes at length with balance in mind, I was just pointing out this indirect nerf to all the stealthing classes, poor rogues amongst them.

[Mort]

Please do speak your concerns about these mechanic change. They were implemented in haste and a few balance issues may have slipped in.

The C&C being one of them... It's slightly absurd and I agree, as well as the few spells being nerfed for non-specialists, bards, rangers, etc.

[Capricious]

For the record if it's 2 rounds/level vanilla then double that is 4 rounds/level. Double again is 8 rounds/level. That comes out to 48 seconds/level. This means a 6th level caster with GSF divination will have it in effect for just under 5 minutes in total.

[Relinquish]

More of a question

These changes take effect for wiz/sorc only, or anyone that can cast them?

[Caddies]

@ Capricious - Yeah, I can double numbers too. I was assuming extended casts, of course, and said so at least once in one of my posts I believe.

[Capricious]

Which makes it a 4th level casting, and only doable with three feats, which I know was also said. I personally think it would be good if the bonus to Spot and Listen were brought down to perhaps +10. However to lower the duration would make the spell fairly useless as a means for a diviner to gain a bit of DR.

Afterall, Ghostly Visage is a spell that is one level lower, as well as having a much longer duration, as well as granting concealment (now 20% for mages with GSF Illusion, I might add) and immunity to many spells. You see mages who walk about with it up near constantly, as well as high level mages who are keep Improved Invis up near all the time as well.

Clairvoyance still won't have near the duration of either of these, and diviners simply don't have the same kind of protection against ambushes that near every other school of wizard has.

You can claim people can buy blur potions and Improved Invis wands. Blur potions have a very short durations, while Improved Invis wands are prohibitively expensive for most who play here. I know I've never had enough gold on any character of mine to afford even one. They simply aren't a truly viable option.

The DR for Clairvoyance affords a diviner a small bit of protection (which has a ridiculously easy to get counter, I might add).

[Caddies]

I agree with nerfing it to +10/+10, and don't have issue with the blur at all.

[Garem]

Invisibility is great. Blur is just as good, especially now. I stand by the facts based on how often both are used. Illusion is awesome, divination is not, even with these changes.

As a side note, am I mistaken in thinking "Vanilla" casting to mean the old change from 1 round/level to 2 round/level was overturned? Doesn't change my opinion, but it does make a difference.

Regardless, if a diviner takes all 3 feats and does indeed use 2 of their level 4 spell slots to do what the concern seems to be over and it actually becomes a problem (sic), then maybe this debate will be worth raising. Until then, the fact that there's a possible (but not certain) counter for a small minority of wizards against a much more significant number of stealth-users doesn't seem to constitute a major balance concern. Stealthers can skyrocket their H/MS up to 40 with the right equipment, feats, spells, etc. +15 Listen and Spot isn't exactly killing their ability to sneak, it just makes it harder.

More plainly, that it's possibly difficult to sneak up on someone who uses magic to divine the past, present, and future... well. Kind of makes sense, now doesn't it? A well-prepared rogue is sure as hell not going to be prevented from obliterating said diviner with a few standard buffs and a haste potion or two. Point being, just because you can see what's coming doesn't mean you can do a damn thing to stop it.

And they have glowing eyes. That's an easy way to know that you need to slip out before you get caught.

[Caddies]

Stopped reading when you said divination isn't good.

[VanillaPudding]

Check out my Illusionist that has GSF Illusion and also GSF divination. Is it getting broken yet?

[Johannes]

Balagarn's iron horn was absurd. In its original implementation, even having 20 strength would only give you a 50% chance to resist. Bringing it down to 14 makes it reasonable. Every spell and tactic needs a counter, and now having decent strength is one of them.

The notion of GSF C/C granting permanent "automatic detection" is, frankly, ridiculous. For the cost of 3 feats and several level 4 spell slots (a nontrivial or even crippling investment), you receive a sign which displays in BIG GLOWING EYES, reading "Diviner! Sneak further away from me until my spell runs out!". Auto-detection? Really? I don't think so. Factor in:

• Distance, ambient and other circumstantial modifiers
• Movement penalties to detection
• HALF-spot/listen rolls with ///d10/// on die for anyone NOT in detect mode
• Spot/listen as cross-skills for wizards and sorcerers
• The utter TRANSPARENCY of the spell at its full duration
• 30 hide/ms practically as a minimum for any stealth build on EFU

I think that the canny stealth build is secure. It's not a trivial change! I'm not arguing otherwise. But it's not going to kill rogues, and it makes a lot of sense thematically. Don't even worry about rogues right now.

[Mort]

Balagorn's horn was hardly OP since it targetted all of your allies. The knockdown is very short. Was a great spell, I find!

If it only knockdown your enemies, it would be OP... And oh no, Johannes, you've added the GLOWING EYES to the spell vfx .


We dont want permanent automatic detection for wizards ... ever .. That's sort-of why True-Seeing is nerfed. It's incredibly HARD to play a spy without being grossly min-maxed, which I dont condone. When I played a rogue and I had to invest in 3 feats too, stealthy, skill focus that and this, and my stealth was still gimpy and getting detected all the time.

30 hide / 30 ms as minimum for any stealth build on efu is something I'd expect an Omniworld administrator of a PvP arena server to say >_>;; Fact is very few stealthers will reach that legendary status (aside from Rangers in the wild) or 20 dex halflings/elves which are horrible ideas to condone.

[TheImpossibleDream]

lol 30 hide/ms, even my stealth builds never had that much and when they did they were werecats or druids in the wilderness fully buffed.

You'd have to cripple yourself completely to get 30 hide/move silent in a city area and even then somebody with 10 spot you if you moved about too much and they stood still.

Oh also did I forget to mention, that even if you're not in detect mode if you're standing still you get +5 bonus to detection, if they move they get -5 and if you set them to hostile you get an additional +5!

So effectively somebody with 30 stealth can be detected by somebody with 0 spot 0 listen so long as they are standing still and the stealther is moving.

[AceOfSpadesX]

If you are kitted out for stealth you can get around + 13 to hide/ms from items that are found throughout the module. With 16 dex and level 7 that would give you 26 hide/ms. 30 hide/ms doesn't really seem that insane.

[Capricious]

We're digressing, but it's really not that hard to reach into the 30s for stealth. When I played my rogue spy their Hide/MS was around 34/34 inside the city (City Slicker perk) and this was without any buffs. It was a combination of 18 Dex, three feats, and the proper gear.

I'm not arguing that C&C shouldn't be adjusted, but I don't think it's so hard to get those kinds of stats as a full-classed rogue. Certainly being higher level helps, but don't forget to take full advantage of the C&C changes the diviner needs to be at least 7th level, and to have the "ideal" two Extended castings for an 8th level wizard with an 18 Int would mean two-thirds of their 4th level spell slots are already taken by this spell. A 17 or lower Int and they only get two 4th level slots. It's not as if every diviner will be able have this supposed "auto-detect" upon entering the PW. This is a far larger investment than is being represented, frankly.

Many times when playing my spy people would drink hearing or C&C potions as I was nearby, spying on them. Only once or twice did they actually see or hear them. The idea was to stay near some kind of cover, and whenever someone went to drink anything or cast anything you take those few steps away and out of perception. Being close enough to hear whispers, or behind closed doors, is when a spy is truly in danger, and that is how it should be in my opinion. And even then I spied on people behind closed doors many times and only once was ever caught...and that was by Detect Evil. I felt as if my spy was very effective, but I did it by being smart. I didn't spy on rangers, bards or other rogues, for instance, because the risk was too high. Being a good spy is about a lot more than being able to stand there undetected and listen anyway. If that's the entirety of your spy's repertoire you aren't likely to be that effective.

Again, if the detection bonuses need some adjusting to keep things in balance I won't disagree, although I feel calling it an automatic detection is an exaggeration based on my own experiences with spying. Amplify is quite a bit more effective for detection anyway as it's +20 to Listen.

If you adjust the spell duration you pretty much relegate the spell back to where people never actually cast it, and only carry about C&C potions or items they might find (although more tend to carry Amplify potions and items), since the DR's duration will be shorter than that of a blur potion.

I'm sorry for my long, rambling post, but what's being represented simply isn't my own experience playing a spy here on EfUA.