Spell Changes

[The Beggar]

Firstly, I think some of the changes to the spells are pretty darn awesome. Congrats on finding a way to make the SF and GSF feats worth more. It's a great idea.

I think that some of the changes however may nerf some of the class spells and special items.

For example:

Bard with Iron Horn spell, now would cast at 14 opposed str roll? Also makes items and wands of this spell a bit less useful. A great escape spell, and many times cast vs ftr classes who are str buffed, an opposed 20 str roll gives you a chance. Now it seems to by my 14 str vs their buffed str in the opposed roll -- bummer!

Suggestion: make taking the SF and GSF perks affect positively on the spells, absolutely. But please don't nerf spells just becuase you don't have the feat.

[putrid_plum]

yes i pretty much agree with this

[Caddies]

Was C+C spell reverted to vanilla as it seems to imply? That is, +10 Spot/Listen for 1 round per level. Or is it still +15/+15 at 2 rounds/level? If so, I must point out that any diviner is just going to be walking around with 16 round/level ghostly visage with automatic stealth-detection...

On a server where I think we need to make pure rogues stronger, this is not good IMO!

Otherwise, excellent changes.

[Dr Dragon]

Why are Dms balancing out Diviners again? Divination is known as being the weakest school that all the other wizards poke fun at that. While I thought the scrying and Arcane Eye were nice as it gave Diviners the stuff that made them scary in PNP.

[Garem]

Still, Diviners are a particularly rare breed and lack the use of a very powerful school of spells- illusion. I agree that rogues don't need to be any weaker, but this is probably the best trade-off you can have.

Scrying is awesome but I can't imagine it's very easy to use, or can be used that often. Their only other awesome (well, now it is) spell is C/C. One could argue for truestrike, but a run of the mill Diviner isn't going to have all that much use for TS. And if they can't turn invisible to hide and run away, at least they can use spells to create a way to prevent someone from catching them off guard.

This is the break diviners have never had before, so making rogues stronger in in a different way is probably a better way to handle it.

[Caddies]

For clarity, diviners aren't overly rare and scrying for most dedicated Diviners is usually hooked up for them by DMs one way or another. With the new spells and spell changes they're probably one of the strongest specializations, which is fine because they're probably the coolest too from a thematical standpoint.

I was merely pointing out that basically having automatic stealth detection for huge amounts of time per cast only weakens rogues further, a class everyone agrees needs buffs and not indirect nerfs.

[Staring Death]

Additionally, NWN has a cap of +20 to ab (through spells, that is).* Assuming EfU hasn't found a way around it, buffing True Strike to +25 is useless unless used in conjunction of a penalty to AB, such as power attack.

*So says NWNwiki.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

One tiny note, 16 rounds isn't a very long time.  Maybe a bit over two minutes.

[Egon the Monkey]

Caddies, with SF Divination you get 4 rounds a level (2 rounds/level, doubled) and GSF you get 8 rounds a level (4, doubled) , which is 4/5 the duration of Blur. It doesn't just hit rogues, it hits bards, monks, and rangers in the town. Perhaps it'd be good to add the glowy eyes effect with simply SF Divination, as a feature that telegraphs "Hey, this guy has a divination up and he's GOOD, avoid him" if it's that bad. Really though, being able to see people is what a diviner does, whereas an Evoker would just Fireball the area and see if anyone burns ;).

Garem has it right, I reckon. The problem with rogues isn't a stealth arms race as much as the prevalence of un-sneakable mobs on the server and the difficulty in amassing a regular supply of traps without ending up with all the same sort off 1-2 quests, or paying through the nose.

[VanillaPudding]

A little silly yes. A Wizard can pretty much prepare 2 extended C/C and be fully buffed between every rest with massive detection.

[Garem]

A little silly yes. A Wizard can pretty much prepare 2 extended C/C and be fully buffed between every rest with massive detection.

And any wizard who can cast illusions can remain entirely unseen and unheard through invisibility spells that are a spellslot lower by simply dodging everyone around them. At level 6, two extended (or one not-extended at level eight) is enough to last from rest to rest.

I don't agree that having awesome detection abilities, which demand 3 feats (SF, GSF, Extend) and more than likely, but not necessarily forbids the use of illusion (in my opinion the most generally useful school of magic) is more powerful than that.

Diviners need the love. That was the point of the update to C/C to begin with.

Also, at level 9, you get 36 rounds with GSF. Extend that to 72.

72 rounds x 6 seconds = 432 seconds / 60 seconds = 7.2 minutes

Unless I'm mistaken on some numbers, which is certainly possible, it would require 3 level 4 spells to get close to rest to rest casting with 3.4 minutes without it.

[Divine Intervention]

Agree with Garem.

[Paha]

There are sides to everything. I personally believe, from RP side of the story that most may not like as it tends to "ruin" the fun, that mages are not supposed to be good at everything.

I like the lessened effect on certain spells, and bonus for those that actually study that area of magic. Makes perfect sense to me and they actually seem like diviners, transmuters, enchanters, illusionist and what not finally.

[Porkolt]

For clarity, diviners aren't overly rare and scrying for most dedicated Diviners is usually hooked up for them by DMs one way or another. With the new spells and spell changes they're probably one of the strongest specializations, which is fine because they're probably the coolest too from a thematical standpoint.
 
I was merely pointing out that basically having automatic stealth detection for huge amounts of time per cast only weakens rogues further, a class everyone agrees needs buffs and not indirect nerfs.

Point in fact, of course, that a wizard who sees your rogue stealthing around isn't particularly scary unless they're wielding PhK (which diviners don't).
 
Sending in a few disabling spells here would be nice, but all you'd be able to do afterward is jump around 'ahhh there's a rogue there, kill him, kill him' and all the people who didn't get detect skills are 'really, where?' and nothing else much happens.
 
Worst thing that can happen is getting a hold spell on your ass and the wizard spams no save damage spells. If you, as a rogue, weren't prepared to deal with that, you'd have been screwed attacking a wizard in the first place.

[VanillaPudding]

And any wizard who can cast illusions can remain entirely unseen and unheard through invisibility spells that are a spellslot lower by simply dodging everyone around them. At level 6, two extended (or one not-extended at level eight) is enough to last from rest to rest.

I don't agree that having awesome detection abilities, which demand 3 feats (SF, GSF, Extend) and more than likely, but not necessarily forbids the use of illusion (in my opinion the most generally useful school of magic) is more powerful than that.

Diviners need the love. That was the point of the update to C/C to begin with.

Also, at level 9, you get 36 rounds with GSF. Extend that to 72.

72 rounds x 6 seconds = 432 seconds / 60 seconds = 7.2 minutes

Unless I'm mistaken on some numbers, which is certainly possible, it would require 3 level 4 spells to get close to rest to rest casting with 3.4 minutes without it.

Wand of invis - 1600 gold. Potions of invis - 80 gold each. Easily detecting all stealth classes for 14.4 minutes and getting free blur while you're at it - Priceless.

Point in fact, of course, that a wizard who sees your rogue stealthing around isn't particularly scary unless they're wielding PhK (which diviners don't).

Sending in a few disabling spells here would be nice, but all you'd be able to do afterward is jump around 'ahhh there's a rogue there, kill him, kill him' and all the people who didn't get detect skills are 'really, where?' and nothing else much happens.

Worst thing that can happen is getting a hold spell on your ass and the wizard spams no save damage spells. If you, as a rogue, weren't prepared to deal with that, you'd have been screwed attacking a wizard in the first place.

Hold and PHK are the only viable solutions obviously. Let's leave out the countless other spells and even other GSF options that automatic stealth detecting wizard has.