Rogue "perks"

[Disco]

I dont get all this. Rogues has ALOT ALOT ALOT! Of rogue only items. The rogue in itself is also a very good class. Sneak attack yes sir! ( and infact when flanking [wich you have to do to sneakattack] you will get the same ab as a fighter) Good skills that noone else has on high lvls like open locks (we all hate to leave loot behind) Or disable traps and such. The rogue is fine and it really do not need a boost although a few flavour perks would be nice.

[GoblinSapper]

I dont get all this. Rogues has ALOT ALOT ALOT! Of rogue only items. The rogue in itself is also a very good class. Sneak attack yes sir! ( and infact when flanking [wich you have to do to sneakattack] you will get the same ab as a fighter) Good skills that noone else has on high lvls like open locks (we all hate to leave loot behind) Or disable traps and such. The rogue is fine and it really do not need a boost although a few flavour perks would be nice.

A rogue in melee flank is just waiting to trigger an AoO and get 1 shotted, what about ranged rogues that Sneak Snipe from behind fighters?

[EfUA_undercover]

Playing my second pure rogue in a row I don't see that much of a problem here. Some flavour perks would be cool, but a rogue isn't a fighter who can sneak attack, if thats what you want to play then play a fighter and emote that you are stabbing backs.

With flanking and a couple of readily available items a rogue is a worthy addition to many parties in more than one way (traps, locks, dmg output). Of course they aren't needed, but what is needed anyway? Do you need a fighter? No, you don't. Do you need a wizard? No, you don't. What you need most of the time is a plan what you are doing and how you do it.

People who run heads-on into combat with their rogue should just complain less and play a barbarian!

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

For the record, the DM team is actively considering ways to boost the viability of pure rogues.

x
Nuke

[TheImpossibleDream]

Do you need a fighter? No, you don't. Do you need a wizard? No, you don't. What you need most of the time is a plan what you are doing and how you do it.

"Do you want a fighter, yes you do, do you want a wizard, yes you do, do you want a rogue? Nah."

I think my above statement sums up the problem with rogues. Some might suggest that this issue can be solved by placing traps. But really traps can be disabled by any class and if I had 10xp everytime I saw some moron/unfortunate with disable trap trip a 20d6 Strong electric (yes "strong" not "deadly") trap I'd be level 40 by now.

So yeah it's nice to see rogue being worked on.

[Drakill Tannan]

I don't think goblin sapper's idea is OP at all, because on EFU:A Rogues are an unecesary jack of all trades. Think of it this way...
[LIST=1]

• Sneak attack it's awsome, but there are tons, and i mean tons of enemies on the server inmune to sneak attack: Oozes, nightrisers or any of the thousand kinds of undeads on the module, and there are a few constructs here and there. Most of the tough enemies are undead or ooze or something inmune to sneak attack, so while it is cool, it's not too great on the EFU Setting. If you want damage dealing, a fighter with a greatsword is far more effective than ANY rogue.
• A rogue is good because he can easily detect traps and disarm them. Mind you, any PC can disarm any trap, all he needs it's one of the many items with charges of summon creature I usable by anyone. Either that or have a wizard who has the raven familiar
• Rogues can also open locks. However most of the locks are key-specific, wich means mostly there is nothing behind thouse doors. The others can be opened by any PC with lockpicking as a cross skill or a wizard with the ooze familiar. So rogues are far from necesary here.
• Regarding hiding and spotting ability, they are vastly outmatched by the ranger, even in non-wilderness areas due to the unlimited camuflage/one with the land they can cast.

UMD is probably the only really good asset of the rogue, but it is not unique to rogues, bards have it too, only that in addition, they can tank, support and usually do what most rogues can, in addition to the bardsong.

Regarding GoblinSapper's bonus feat suggestons, i have to agree. In all my NWN playing years i never even bothered considering any other bonus feats other than cripling strike or improved evasion as a level 10 and 13 rogue.

• Oportunist might give you a huge advantage, but only might, and it's completly random weather you can count on it or not. You can't calculate it within your battleplan, so it's very meh.
• Slippery mind it's moderatly good. But everyone has PfE up all the time anyway, won't change too much. Besides if the rogue has a low save, he is likely to save both rolls.
• Skill mastery is like, a joke. Who goes on disarming traps in the middle of the combat? If it does anything, it's just saving you a few seconds of waiting after the battle ends.
• Defensive Roll sucks. It may come extremly handy in 5% of the scenarios, but you can't count on it.

So even with all these feats, a rogue would be far form OP. I'd say buffs should be given in addition to this. For example, my proposed +1 hide/ move silently per level on pure rogues.

[Drakill Tannan]

Additoanlly, and now that i think of it, why not allow the craft trap skill to be used normally?

[Bearic]

...
 On success you only take half damage. That doesn't garuntee it'll save you...

 
 Actually, if I remember right, evasion makes it so that all reflex saves you meet have you take no damage, and you only take half damage on a failure. Very nifty thing, that; used to use it a whole bunch in Ice Wind Dale 2 - just sneak attack with a rogue, and throw a fire ball into the mess.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Actually, if I remember right, evasion makes it so that all reflex saves you meet have you take no damage, and you only take half damage on a failure. Very nifty thing, that; used to use it a whole bunch in Ice Wind Dale 2 - just sneak attack with a rogue, and throw a fire ball into the mess.

I'm not sure evasion works in conjunction with defensive roll. Also evasion reduces the damage on a successful roll that would be half damage to no damage. You still take full damage from failing a roll with the evasion feat.

Improved evasion(Not available until level 9) reduces damage of even failed rolls, again I'm not certain it even works with this feat.

But even if it does there are still factors such as:

DC = Damage done, meaning easily 30-80 DC when you eat a crit from the usual suspects.

Does not activate while flat footed, so drinking potions, running etc will disable this feat

Does not recognize on hit effects like darkfire (you still take full/critical damage from them)

Works once per day. But I guess even if it worked more than once per day you'd never save twice.

So yeah not that amazing.

[Nihm]

I don't like the idea of movement speed bonus, simply because so many classes have already been given this, they'll soon outnumber classes that don't have it.
 
Offering a perk, feat, or item that is lost if any other level than Rogue is taken, along the lines of Shadowdancer or Assassin feats, perhaps :
 
The rogue, at level five, can choose either Lesser Shadow Conjuration/day (Giving them a choice of invisibility, Darkness, Mage Armor, or summon a weak Shadow - all "roguesy" spells) , Rogue's Cunning/day (Upping their skills so they're actually better than multiclasses at them), the Poison Wweapon feat, or the Lightening Reflexes feat.

[VanillaPudding]

None of those would improve them enough, sadly. There is a rather fine line between making them useful and making them rang- err, I mean, making them useful.

[GoblinSapper]

And before anyone says it, the solution is not to nerf rangers, who are FINALLY a great and playable class due to their benefits. A pity the camoflauge and One with the Land spells cannot be modified to only work in the Wilderness, though.
 
Like I have said, the biggest problem rogues face is their inability to hit anything, and that many things resist their sneak attack. Some sort of passive boost to their stealth may help as well, seeing as Rangers can buff their Hide/MS greatly with their magic.

[Nihm]

None of those would improve them enough, sadly.

They would not improve them hugely, but they would make them more interesting, more desirable, and more tricky and survivable - which is what rogues are supposed to excel at.

[Drakill Tannan]

Class-restricted items can fix the rogue's problems on hitting undead.

[Disco]

yes they would Drakill and infact they are already out there.