Paladins, evil and Detect Evil

[Paha]

The thing is, that ability is their given ability, and it is supposed to be used. It's just how it is. You should use it. How you use it and react to it though, is up to you.

[Barehander]

Well, I hardly think the DMs are going to force you to assume it's an ability your paladin has and must use. (And if they do, I hope they won't say it here; it should be discovered IC.) Why would every paladin in every order get identical powers? In fact they don't, there are plenty of Subsitution Levels, like pseudo-prestige classes, that you use in place of pure paladin levels, introduced for several orders in Champions of Valor.

It is very well conceivable that some paladins in some orders would have sworn an oath to face other people on equal ground, relying on their natural wisdom and perceptiveness, instead of making the arguably unfair magical act of invading your soul without permission and defining you externally. (Not everyone sees it like this, but it's definetely a very defensible notion.) Maybe some gods like Lathander want their paladins to sharpen their mind like that (portfolio: self-perfection) and give the benefit of the doubt to people who might so repent (portfolio: new beginnings).

No, it's hardly the norm. But it's quite feasible, so I don't think anyone should OOCly dictate how everyone must play their paladin.

It's exactly the unbending lack of imagination your post portrays, Paha Poika, that I find so frustrating in attitudes about paladins.

[Paha]

The thing is, it is not my imagination that does not bend here. It has been said, it is an ability given by their deity and it is also something they are supposed to use. It's not my words, nor my invention.

How Paladins react to this knowledge of another person and this feeling that surrounds them, is where your imagination kicks in. There's virtuous paladins, there's the vengeful types and avengers, and as many as you can think of.

Make no mistake for a moment that I would play typical paladin of shouting the tainted persons darkness when he stands next to me. Don't insult me in assuming how I handle myself, but read the text as it is. That ability is what it is, and it's not my attitude or my imagination that says so.

You can fight and kick back on it, but that's how it is. You can of course not use it. No one can force you, but it is an ability that is supposed to be used. If you're prepared to ignore a given ability from your Deity, that they have deemed for you to use, then go ahead.

[Wern8]

While Barehander is correct about just simply doing what your character should do, even if it is against the Paladin code and bares negative consequences, Detect Evil is not a metagaming ability at all nor is it in any way bad or silly on EFU:A, it is in fact a big part of the Paladin class and if properly done, adds to role-playing, of course it should not be overly dependent on though and a Paladin should still make use of his own common sense and capabilities when acting against evil.

Now, If you do not want to use detect evil or find it a silly ability, I suggest refraining from playing a Paladin as it likely does not fit you and  you will definitely fall if you play it this way, while we definitely allow Fallen Paladins, we do not want players to make Paladins with the purpose of falling as their foremost desire, especially through not using Detect Evil.

Edited: All Paladins regardless of deity do receive the ability to detect evil and have basically the very same code, there are differences between the faiths though, but the basic features of the class remain. I recommend this thread for further reading as well.

[Letsplayforfun]

It's exactly the unbending lack of imagination your post portrays, Paha Poika, that I find so frustrating in attitudes about paladins.

I'd like not seeing this kind of stuff on forums. Please stay cool.

Concerning the OP, it's a recurrent theme. Paladins are free to use it whenever they want. There are not free as bound by their oath of courtesy to start insulting someone about it. But there's a middle ground too, which isn't that hard to find.

If you're not confortable with it, don't play paladins. On the recieving end,  detect evil can and will be used against unwilling PCs, thats what it's for.

One hint i could give is if the evil person starts to demand as to 'why is that guy not liking me', then he should be prepared for the short explaination. You're digging your own hole if you're asking a paladin to justify his 'sight'.

[Barehander]

Paha Poika: Imagination creates the reality of the game. EfU and our PCs aren't real, so nothing "just is" unless we imagine it so. There's no reason not to imagine that some Paladin did not have the ability, other than arbitrary taste. Now, it's true that people (in our case, the DMs) can enforce their subjective taste on everyone, but that's rather crude and banal and I doubt EfU DMs are stubborn enough to turn down a good explanation when they're given one.

Detect Evil is not a metagaming ability at all nor is it in any way bad or silly on EFU:A, it is in fact a big part of the Paladin class and if properly done, adds to role-playing, of course it should not be overly dependent on though and a Paladin should still make use of his own common sense and capabilities when acting against evil.

Now, If you do not want to use detect evil or find it a silly ability, I suggest refraining from playing a Paladin as it likely does not fit you and  you will definitely fall if you play it this way, while we definitely allow Fallen Paladins, we do not want players to make Paladins with the purpose of falling as their foremost desire, especially through not using Detect Evil.

Edited: All Paladins regardless of deity do receive the ability to detect evil and have basically the very same code, there are differences between the faiths though. I recommend this thread for further reading as well.

What is silly or metagamey is a matter of taste. The statement that "it's not silly on EfU" is rather silly itself, suggesting that there is some uniform taste enforced on the server. I think it's silly, I've never seen anything good come of it, I want nothing to do with it, and I will play a paladin if I feel like it. You can disagree, and that's perfectly fine. I do hope that when the time comes, you will consider my PC without bias and see if it's as poor a concept as you're predisposed to think.

Paladins in the Realms don't have identical codes. There's no The Paladin Code. It's bluntly stated in the Campaign Setting. Of course, it's possible that you've houseruled otherwise (probably originally out of ignorance, even if you've since come to like it better), but I see no reason why you wouldn't also allow people to play paladins as they are in the Realms. Not everyone has to dance to one tune, not everything has to conform to one uniform taste. I can make just as good, if not better an argument for my view as you can for yours. You can either squish me with dogmatic authority as is your right as a DM, or you can live and let live. I guess we'll see when/if I make my paladin, though.

LPFF: I was thinking that might come off as rude, so I'm sorry about that. It wasn't my intention, and I'm actually rather cool. I just like to post dramatic. >_<

[Wern8]

There actually is "The Paladin Code", it was just not stated in the FRCS, it was in Defenders of  the Faith: A Guidebook to Clerics and Paladins, but for easier reference and more EFU:A based, see the link I gave out, it is very much the same.

[Howlando]

Barehander, again with the detect-evil-paladin-threads.

You can either squish me with dogmatic authority as is your right as a DM, or you can live and let live.

I will squish you with my dogmatic authority. I care nothing for canon, frankly, beyond the fact that it was a useful starting point.

But in EFU, a distinguishing feature of the paladin class - an important limitation, in fact - is that they are so beholden to the force of good that to go on a quest with an evil companion is contrary to their nature and code. A code that we have decided exists for all paladins.

Yes, we think it is silly for paladins to choose to go off and kill Harpies with Joe Evil. And yes, we will adjust your alignment over time as it is observed.

But I think your concept sounds great as a fighter, or fighter/divine champion, fighter/cleric, or any number of other classes or class combinations. What, after all, is so important about being a "paladin"?

[9lives]

Howland?

More like HITLER.

DON'T TREAD ON ME, PALIN 2012

[Dash]

lol

[Barehander]

Wern8: The Revised Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, A Grand Tour Of The Realms, page 14:

"There is no specific paladin's code, no set of do's and don'ts by which paladins are judged on a pass/fail basis." What follows is mention of an IC document, Quentin's Monograph, which is a widely known treatise on paladins and virtues but not normative among different faiths. Then this: "[E]very paladin grades and emphasizes these virtues based on his or her own personal ethos and religious background. ---Paladins may obey all these virtues to the letter and still lose their special status, or flout one virtue in the name of another and still retain paladinhood. In this fashion, a paladin may exist outside an organized hierarchy or even lead rebellions and wars against unjust or evil causes. It is possible under these virtues that one paladin may even fight another, both seeking to defend a different paladin’s virtue or interpretation of all of them."

I know you've decided this doesn't apply for EfU. (Though saying you don't care about Forgotten Realms is not an argument; it just shows you don't have a more elaborate case to make.) It's just that your idea of paladins is so far out from what they are in the original setting that you're hardly fair to assume everyone will buy into it with a smile. Why can't you accept that not everyone likes your idea and shares your taste, and that maybe they still want to play your cool server?

The point isn't who's right and whose view should be enforced for all. The point is, why does one view have to be enforced at all? Why the prevalent trend that everything has to be just like you imagined it when you created the module? It's not as if diversity and independence is bad for a server. Right now many EfU veterans are so used to doing what DMs "expect of them" that the result is a stagnant rotation of the same concepts over and over again: "yeah conflict, PvP, good stuff gone twisted, evil stuff gone twisted, conflict, yeah PCs that live two weeks and archetypes from B-grade fantasy literature!" I know I'm exaggerating, but there really is an unusual number of yay-sayers and sycophants on EfU and I can't help but wonder if it's because you expect players to do what you want, instead of going out of your way to facilitate what players want. You've actually created a pretty dynamic story with your policy, but some diversity isn't going to ruin that.

What's good about being a paladin is that it's such a stagnant pile of false preconceptions that it's fun and challenging to breate new life into it. There's nothing controversial about playing a Fighter/Cleric, but showing that not all typical beliefs about Paladins are justified is controversial and exciting. And it's never wrong to rattle the cage a little.

[9lives]

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to use Harvard standard notation if you're going to reference.

[Equinox]

your idea and shares your taste, and that maybe they still want to play your cool server?

Pretty much says it all. This server is -Howlands-, and is run by howland and the DM team. What they say goes, and you are making a massive fuss over something relatively stupid.

Quite simply, if you want to play a "divine warrior" class, but not be restricted by the Paladin Code set here. Play a Fighter/Cleric, or play a Divine Champion.

Though the question really is, why would your LG pc want to go hanging around with evil people anyway. Seems to me like you want the paladin spells and abilities, but not the responsibilties of RPing that class.

[Howlando]

You can make your substantive critiques of EFU and whether its a "stagnant rotation of the same concepts" (strongly disagree) or whether our playerbase is filled with "sycophants" (very amusing to me) on another thread. I am perfectly prepared to explain why I believe it is necessary that the DM team establish certain facts and aspects of the setting/classes, and why I think this is a good thing.

You seem to have some sort of philosophical disagreement with our policy of setting certain things down in stone, but to debate that here is off topic.

This thread is about DE and the Paladin Code.

We made the decision that:

But in EFU, a distinguishing feature of the paladin class - an important limitation, in fact - is that they are so beholden to the force of good that to go on a quest with an evil companion is contrary to their nature and code. A code that we have decided exists for all paladins.

If you really want to play a paladin that for some reason does not follow this code, you can submit an application. The application will be carefully considered on its merits (and then probably denied).

We like Detect Evil because -

1 - the situation of paladins questing with evil characters is lame and silly to us

2 - it is an essential feature of the Paladin class, and this limitation/handicap is part of the fun with them

3 - It is an important balancing factor considering the various mechanical powers they possess (saves, immunities, bless weapon, etc.)

4 - As DMs stretched thin watching over a (very) successful server with a playerbase of hundreds, we do not really have the time to monitor the actions of a paladin who did quest with evil characters. And if we did selectively only sometimes adjustment alignment, why then we'd be dragged into massive arguments and debates with pedantic players (such as yourself) who appear to get this massive thrill out of repeatedly trolling/arguing with DMs (yet barely ever actually playing)

5 - It's basically just more fun for paladins and everyone involved

6 - Probably lots of other reasons but to be honest I just can't be bothered.

Yes, we set the rules. You seem to not like the fact that we set the rules. Fine, but it's the way it is. You're welcome to vote with your feet and find somewhere else to.... sort of play.

In the meantime, I and the rest of the DM staff will continue to bust our butts every day to make this the server as good as it can be, and part of that means tossing down some chaos points when we see paladins questing it up killing goblins in the company of evil Pcs :-)

[Barehander]

Pretty much says it all. This server is -Howlands-, and is run by howland and the DM team. What they say goes, and you are making a massive fuss over something relatively stupid.

Quite simply, if you want to play a "divine warrior" class, but not be restricted by the Paladin Code set here. Play a Fighter/Cleric, or play a Divine Champion.

Though the question really is, why would your LG pc want to go hanging around with evil people anyway. Seems to me like you want the paladin spells and abilities, but not the responsibilties of RPing that class.

I disagree with every paragraph. The assumptions you make are outright insulting, even if you didn't mean them as such: I'm not making a paladin anytime soon, and I have no desire to "hang out with evil people". I dislike the very idea of Detect Evil, an ability that was never meant to be used against PCs and is purely a tool of convenience in a PnP campaign. It simply has no place in RP, as far as I'm concerned. Even moreso I dislike the idea that someone else tells me how I have to play my paladin. Basically, it's a case of "somebody's wrong on the Internet." ;)

Of course what Howland says goes. That's exactly why I'm making an argument here, instead of just doing what I want. It's our job as players to communicate what we want, because that's what every server is ultimately about: giving players what they want. You'd be pretty stupid to play here if you weren't getting what you want. If a change is needed in order for you to get what you want, then you need to convince people that the change is good. Players around here need to grow a pair and stop being afraid of disagreeing with the DMs. Howland is a mature and smart guy, and I've yet to be banned for ranting in public and in PMs.

EDIT: Howland: fair enough, we're off topic. And I get it, you like Detect Evil and have several reasons for doing so. I don't, and I don't have to because the rules don't force me to. My contribution to this topic is that you don't need to use Detect Evil all the time (or you should use it only when you have reason to suspect someone is evil; black spiky armor or other clichés seem good enough a reason). That means you have to be on your toes and watch out for any indications of evil to give you reason to use your god-given gift. It's much more challenging, the responsibility of paladinhood weighs heavier on your shoulders that way. Certainly not the opposite, as some in the Solution Button camp seem to suggest. So I suggest you try it, and see if you'll have similar awkward situations where you have to call out and slander an evil guy in public for no reason.