Paladins, evil and Detect Evil

[BrittanyPanthas]

No real paladin will excuse any evil act made even in desperation. The circumstances only matter in the consideration of the gravity of a specific crime.  The fact of the matter and the real root of the problem is that few evil aligned PCs on EFU act out their alignment. The vast majority of them should be neutral aligned. To use a specific and recent example. The ruthless and highly chaotic PC Walter Hodgeton started neutral and shifted on a downward spiral to evil after several notable acts. So when you create your PC you should put heavy consideration into whether this PC really has committed many depraved, evil acts that are worthy of the alignment with future intent to commit many more. If not, then go neutral initially like Walter did.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

Do keep in mind that (at least in d&d) alignment isn't everything. Even common peasants, who under the influence of a Hextoran regime, can turn evil in time. Not because they've actually done any thing evil or committed any crimes, but because of the mindset itself and indoctrination, and because evil is a -tangible- effect. It effects not just one person, but everyone around them, and even the land and air itself, which is why Detect Evil (again, this is the d&d detect evil I reference, not the efu detect evil) also can detect cursed terrain and the lingering effects of evil. Even if you are 100% pure of any crime or sin you can still be evil through many different reasons- evil is a morality alignment, not an ethical one (see the d&d moral/ethical alignment axis), and morals can be built up or degraded given external influence. The alignment is a persons outlook on life more than a record sheet of deeds. Again though this is just dungeons and dragons I talk about. I know many things are changed for this server, including the very function of a paladins detect evil and its usage.

[Nightshadow]

No real paladin will excuse any evil act made even in desperation. The circumstances only matter in the consideration of the gravity of a specific crime.  The fact of the matter and the real root of the problem is that few evil aligned PCs on EFU act out their alignment. The vast majority of them should be neutral aligned. To use a specific and recent example. The ruthless and highly chaotic PC Walter Hodgeton started neutral and shifted on a downward spiral to evil after several notable acts. So when you create your PC you should put heavy consideration into whether this PC really has committed many depraved, evil acts that are worthy of the alignment with future intent to commit many more. If not, then go neutral initially like Walter did.

Yes!

[GoblinSapper]

Having played a Paladin, the rejection of evil PC's is a difficult part of it, but a necessary one. Part of what defines your paladin is HOW they interact with evil. Just because you won't quest with them doesn't mean you can't, say, have an awesome conversation with them:
 
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41917
 
There is a general mentality that Paladins are meant to be crusaders, so all they should do is choppy chop chop evil, but I rather feel paladins ought to be inspirations and hero's. It comes down to what you feel that means, individually. For me, it means giving at least one hard sell to try and redeem people. Then you crush their heads with a hammer later.

[The Old Hack]

No real paladin will excuse any evil act made even in desperation. The circumstances only matter in the consideration of the gravity of a specific crime.

Excuse? Possibly not. Forgive a repenting sinner? That is a different matter, I feel. Someone may be guilty of a crime done in a moment of passion and be haunted by it later, seeking to atone or to do better in the future. Or -- and this is where someone seeking to redeem might step in -- live in denial of their guilt, try to justify an evil act to themselves. Such a person shown that all this denial is is running away from herself might at last start the long hard road towards atonement.

The trick, of course, is to know when such a person actually desires to turn away from evil, or may be shown that it is better to do so. Some cases are indeed hopeless. Others... are merely very, very difficult.

So when you create your PC you should put heavy consideration into  whether this PC really has committed many depraved, evil acts that are  worthy of the alignment with future intent to commit many more. If not,  then go neutral initially like Walter did.

I'd like to have this clarified, please. What of a man who has at least once committed cold-blooded murder in order to achieve an ambition of his and who feels untroubled by it and would do it again? What of a psychopath who might be a doting father and family man and then turn around and cause destruction and death when his loved ones cannot see him? Is evil a matter of mindset or does it only become manifest with action? If the latter, what of the person who has erred into some act of destruction or murder but tries to atone or do better in the future?

Also, I would like to repeat an earlier question of mine. Would it be acceptable RP, possibly requiring DM approval, to start an 'evil' character that is seeking to climb free of her past misdeeds and atone? I ask because I am genuinely interested and might want to use an idea like that at some point. (Saying that in that case you just start out Neutral is an acceptable answer as it won't keep me from using my idea. :) )

[petey512]

The "You're evil" speech is always hard for me to do as a paladin, and so I always try to make the encounters slightly more interesting. I usually am asked to point them out, and will do so quietly, not screaming a whole lot. Other times I will make a flowery speech about how I don't know how they've fallen to the path they're on, or even if they are repenting; only that I hope they find their way. Regardless of the circumstance I am unable to assist them in battle in any way. Such would be dishonorable, and so it is better that I not accompany them or they not come. Even this gets boring after awhile, but I prefer it to the more common reactions.

[Paha]

In this matter, evil is actions done, or that mischievous and malicious nature that clearly calls out for such actions. It's pretty black and white in the case of paladins. They cannot excuse it, they cannot neither forget it, not before they have actually seen the taint fade and feel the person changing. As long as their god given powers tell them that person is evil, he is evil. No going around it.

It is easy to do good deeds, but no matter how many you do, it will never repent for that murder you did in past. It would require constant and vigorous devotion to the ideal of good and just to overcome that "taint" or what ever it is, so going up from evil is extremely difficult, and will require some outstanding actions for the good of others.

It's easy to just murder innocent and fall from grace with one swing, but climbing back may not be even possible, or it would take ridiculous effort.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

Also note for the above comment (a couple up actually) that psychopathy does not equal criminality, though it would be evil. In fact, you can be a psychoapth with an evil alignment (evil of course because of the disposition on life) and live from birth to death with a 100% clean rap sheet with no crimes or foul deeds, though still maintaining that twisted view on life and the relation of people within it. This is one of the reason why sociopaths make the best military personelle- it does not mean they will be criminals nor butchers, but you can rely on them to get the job requested of them done without moral conflict over taking life. Also why many NE mercenaries can be found. The job itself, killing people for the sheer purpose of your next pay check, is an evil thing, even if you are hired by good forces and have committed no past crimes or bad deeds. Not to say all mercenaries are NE and that none of them care about anything other than money, but just an example of an evil by moral disposition rather than by dark acts.


Edit: Little random dragon lore blurb! This is why Gold dragons, the paladins of the dragon community, do not chase justice on alignment alone. They wait in sting operations, getting close to the evils and at times befriending them on the surface, and then catching them in the act to turn over to local law enforcement.

[SilentSouth]

Everything that has been discussed here has been very helpfull, i haven't yet played a paladin, however those that i have came across, you can tell instantly whether they play the part well or not.
 
Those that simply start blabbering on about 'The Taint on your soul' and have nothing else to do with you, although this may be IC and acceptable, it is quite annoying and boring as it completly gets rid of any awsome RP opportunities. From my point of view it is great to act as someone said earlier a role model and be a hero, and i find it lazy for people to just state 'your tainted so bye bye'

[tspawn35]

I will say that I am learning as I go. My character has made mistakes and been called out for it like working with evil. Getting scared when about to die. Calling out evil when a group is forming.. etc.. etc.. I take it as i come it's a learning process for my character and it makes her stronger. It also makes for great RP later. My character is human both as a race and in the fact that she makes mistakes. At the end of the day everything she does will make her stronger.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

Paladins gain a feat called I think it's Heroic Presence. Immune to fear, magical and mundane. That's not to say she can't make a strategic retreat, under the condition that in saving her skin other people do not die instead. If someone has to die it'll be you to protect the rest ^^

[tspawn35]

Yes, i know... I just have a bad habit from playing other classes in other games and that is when I am close to death I back away from the monster to try and heal myself.. it a bad habit for that is not how a paladin works when in a group. I understand that,  I have read the post about paladins. I just forgot. Which made for an interesting converstion IC. I said nothing at the time but the person was right. I am just going to chulk that up to she got scared and it made her forgot her teaching at the time.. it won't happen again. lol

[Nihm]

I would like to see paladins who oppose people that commit evil actions regardless if those people detect as evil or not.  A neutral person who commits those actions should be almost as bad in their eyes as someone who detects as evil.

[tspawn35]

I completely agree an evil act is still evil.

[Barehander]

I'd like to see paladins who don't use Detect Evil at all, but instead use the Wisdom and Charisma they's required to have in order to figure out the motives of people and the best course of action. Nobody's forcing you to use the metagamey ability (I sure hope), so if you feel it's awkward, why use it at all? If you assume your paladin is oath-forbidden or simply unable to use it at all (which is very possible), you dodge the issue and open the door for serious and challenging RP.

All in all, I think people are way too narrow-minded about paladins. They make absolutely ridicilous absolute claims about "all" paladins in "every" situation. That's always a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot. Paladins are just as diverse as any other class, only in a much narrower field. The possibilities within that small field are still theoretically endless, though.

You should always first and foremost consider the personality of your PC and the context of the situation he's in. You should reflect this on your god's dogma, the orders of your church superiors, and your paladin oath, whatever that is. It really shouldn't be your job to consider OOC what a paladin is supposed or allowed to do, at all. You should do what your character would do, and there's no reason to assume he'd know more about acceptable paladin conduct than you do. If your god disagrees, that's up to the DMs. And that's another valid IC event. I hate it when players try to avoid negative consequences OOC. Do what your PC believes is the right thing, even if that goes against the traditional idea of paladins. If it happens that you're wrong, then you fall and you can wage ethical war against your god who seems to have taken the side of the wrong-doers.