Holy Symbols for Clerics/Paladins

[Egon the Monkey]

With the introduction of spellbooks, it strikes me that it should be possible to do the same thing for Clerics and Paladins, by giving them a Holy Symbol of [Name of PC's Deity] item that they must have on their person to cast spells and Turn Undead. This would have several effects similar to spellbooks.

• Divine casters will want to get the thing back if it's lost, and won't be able to buff up and recover without it. That way they too have an item they have to rely on, as they're meant to. It provides a way to de-badass an enemy cleric, which you can't do by chopping off hands for example.
• Rather than using Turn Undead as a check that a PC is actually a priest of who they say they are, a Search could reveal the Holy symbol. This would give opportunity to hide it, swap it out for a fake or stolen one, etc.
• Getting a Holy Symbol back would require sacrificing valuables/money/Holy items?. That would be a clerical RP hook to gather others of faith of allies to help with the sacrifice.

[Lorilei]

Narfell has a holy symbol system by which you have to have it in your hand equipped as a weapon to turn undead. Perhaps you can talk to them about what they have done?

[Egon the Monkey]

EfU has a possibly appropriate system now in that Wizards require IC Spellbooks in their inventory in order to cast. Using similar code, I'm assuming it's possible to put a similar requirement for a Cleric to have to have a Holy Symbol item on their person or be unable to use divine spells.

[Divine Intervention]

Whilst I see the point somewhat from an OOC perspective this doesn't make sense to me from an IC perspective.  Priests follow the ways of their god, preach, convert, fight for them and in returned they are favoured and given spells.  Priests don't need a holy symbol to cast a spell because their whole way of life is dedicated to their god.  Sorcerors cast naturally, bards cast naturally, they don't need an item so why should clerics?

[Blue41]

I've thought about this before, like the idea. Usually it's come up for me whenever I've subdued characters I suspect to follow one faith, but claim to follow another. The smart way to determine the truth would be to search for some sign or Holy Symbol on their person, which would make sense, I would think. It would also open up some new avenues for RP between members of conflicting faiths:
Priests of Kossuth and Ishtisia duke it out. Kossuth wins, claims opposing priest's symbol, and only agrees to return it after a worthy tribute to his patron.

[Drakill Tannan]

Maybe make it work slightly different than wizards: loosing a holy symbol makes you unable to turn undead and use divine shield/might rather than making you loose spell, and grants you some spell failture.

[Egon the Monkey]

Actually, the focus for any divine spell is the cleric's holy symbol, whereas arcane PCs have reagents. Clerics are very strong, and there's no way equivalent to mutilating them/spellbook theft to take them out of their power without FDing them. It would add more intresting conflict, as Blue just expanded on.

Secondly, Clerics ICly all have a holy symbol anyway, as they use it to turn undead or (possibly) activate perk powers. It's displayed and named with a successful Lore check. However, it can never be found on their person by search, death or subdual, so there's no way to locate clerics lying about their god, clerics posing as mages, that sort of thing short of forcing them to Turn Undead at swordpoint, which only works for one lying about a patron. This would add a level of subterfuge and be cool for app bonuses like a Maskarran apping for a fake Symbol of Helm.

[Ghost]

One thing, however, about "reclaiming" a holy symbol is they're not like spellbooks. They're a dime a dozen, basically, unless EfUA essentially determines otherwise.

In other words, you don't need that specific one back, whereas a spellbook is specific to a wizard in the sense that it's the spells they themselves have accumulated.

I'm not against this is the case of clerics, however I don't think it's appropriate for paladins. Paladins already must follow a rather high standard and multiple difficulties in this particular setting, I don't know it's a good idea to then make things even more difficult.

[Egon the Monkey]

Ymph isn't exactly brimming with custom jewellers, and, for example, knowing someone's comissioned a Symbol of Shar who is supposed to be an Oghman could be good blackmail material. Even if it's just a minor setback, it would also serve the point of "someone knows who you really are and has evidence"

[Drakill Tannan]

In my opinion, make symbols a rare drop on quests. This allows the sharran PC who lost his symbol not to need a DM, but instead, another PC who happened to find a symbol of shar could sell it to him, blackmail him/her, etc.

Additionally this could be used by clerics to further offer cover for their shcemes. You find a PC suspected of murder having both a symbol of cyric and a symbol of mystra. Is he an evil cyrist who claimed the mystran symbol of a priest of mystra? or the other way arround?

Furthermore it would be an exelent addition if you could "Switch" holy symbols. For example, a priest of mask using the holy symbol of oghma when turning undead, of cource, with the drawback that asides from the visual aimation, it doesn't do anything. This way, priests that buy a holy symbol off a PC can "hide" their identity even better, but there will always be somone who knows.

I see tons of awsome RP posibilities. And holy symbols would make exelent trohpies too.

Also, paladins should have them too. Maybe also Divine champions.

[Blue41]

Additionally, perhaps make a Holy Symbol a usable item, which could be used to convert willing PC's, or perhaps convert yourself.

[Barehander]

I'm rather indifferent to the basic idea, like I am to the spellbooks: I'm not interested, but I doubt it might be cool for some. Might fall a little bit into the realm of tedious. The real issue with this is that holy symbols aren't necessarily rare or valuable. Low-ranking priests often make their own from very basic materials. A wooden disk prettied up with some paint is often a valid holy symbol, and the best most rank-and-file priests are ever going to get. They're not comparable to spellbooks in rarity and value.

[The Old Hack]

I admit, I very much like this idea because it will require priests to own at least one item which displays their true nature. One they might hide away, of course, but still.

As to rarity, it is entirely up to the individual world setting. A cheap wooden holy symbol might be good enough to a lay worshipper but not for a true cleric, for example, making it necessary to use finely crafted ones in order to invoke their deity. It could also depend on the god itself -- Ilmater might be fine with a wooden symbol whereas a prouder god might demand that their clerics use tokens of great value to show their reverence. (Though that is only speculation, especially if it would be harder to code differences between Gods that way. The point is, there is no reason why holy symbols could not be required to be rare or made of fine materials in any particular setting.)

[Garem]

Wizards are the best all-around spellcasters. Clerics are incredibly powerful, and gain other awesome advantages, but removing their spells because they don't have a holy symbol? Meh. No thanks. Granted I'm playing a cleric right now.

I do like some of the other suggestions in this thread. Holy symbol items that give bonuses or 1/day uses, or maybe even requiring that one be carried in order to turn undead-- pretty good ideas. I think having to literally hold it like an item would be undesirable, and impossible without haks or saying that this club represents the MIGHT OF TR0M. No thank you. We already have a great script that describes the symbol with passing a Lore check.

[GoblinSapper]

Wizards are the best all-around spellcasters. Clerics are incredibly powerful, and gain other awesome advantages, but removing their spells because they don't have a holy symbol? Meh. No thanks. Granted I'm playing a cleric right now.
 
I do like some of the other suggestions in this thread. Holy symbol items that give bonuses or 1/day uses, or maybe even requiring that one be carried in order to turn undead-- pretty good ideas. I think having to literally hold it like an item would be undesirable, and impossible without haks or saying that this club represents the MIGHT OF TR0M. No thank you. We already have a great script that describes the symbol with passing a Lore check.

 
I agree. Also, I'm going to make a cleric of Tr0m now.