Recent Big Changes - Discussion

[Egon the Monkey]

There's now next to nothing that bypasses Spell Resistance, which is IMO a large balance issue considering that everything from Nightrisers to bosses has SR, not to mention that Evards/Dispel was a decent way to deal with subrace SR.  A Cleric or druid with Spell resistance up will block about 50% of offensive spells from an attacker of equal level.

I really think that EFU needs a suitable counter to SR for offensive casters, either by changing a number of spells to bypass SR, or by adding ways for wizards and sorcs to increase their effective CL for the purposes of SR checks. Possibly by granting a free Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration with 5 and 10 ranks in Spellcraft? Dispel might lower SR but it has to get through it first, so maybe make it lower SR by the caster's CL for a couple of rounds to alllow for a follow-up barrage. Currently SR's only real counter is to buy feats, which is expensive compared to having potions or scrolls in reserve as counters.

Finally, the SR change makes Bard or Spells domain dispels useless against Blur, so it'd be good to change it from L1 immunity to individual immunities to all L1 spells except Dispel.

[Nihm]

These all seem like good changes, particularly the Evards', which did too much damage, and was nearly like an unblockable fireball with no save to reduce by half.

[Howlando]

The Evard's change was absolutely necessary to make immunity: evard's function properly (it goes hand in hand with spell resistance). Even so though I'm inclined to agree that the spell needed another counter.

[12 Hatch]

The drug system is amazing.

Very, very cool addiction for Docks ambiance.

[GoblinSapper]

There's now next to nothing that bypasses Spell Resistance, which is IMO a large balance issue considering that everything from Nightrisers to bosses has SR, not to mention that Evards/Dispel was a decent way to deal with subrace SR. A Cleric or druid with Spell resistance up will block about 50% of offensive spells from an attacker of equal level.
 
I really think that EFU needs a suitable counter to SR for offensive casters, either by changing a number of spells to bypass SR, or by adding ways for wizards and sorcs to increase their effective CL for the purposes of SR checks. Possibly by granting a free Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration with 5 and 10 ranks in Spellcraft? Dispel might lower SR but it has to get through it first, so maybe make it lower SR by the caster's CL for a couple of rounds to alllow for a follow-up barrage. Currently SR's only real counter is to buy feats, which is expensive compared to having potions or scrolls in reserve as counters.
 
Finally, the SR change makes Bard or Spells domain dispels useless against Blur, so it'd be good to change it from L1 immunity to individual immunities to all L1 spells except Dispel.

Aren't there two feats that boost your spell penetration already? Yes, a Cleric or Wizard with Spell Resistance will block most spells - it's also a level 5 spell, meaning that cleric or wizard is lvl 9 and pretty much likly to be as high a level as they're going to get, except in the odd Ogerbitt that gets to lvl 11/12.
 
If you want to be able to dispel/penetrate other spells, take the spell penetration and spell focus abjuration feats. Thats the price you pay for specializing in breaking other mages in PVP. You probably SHOULDN'T be able to beat a lvl 5 spell with generic consumables you can pick up for pocket change.
 
The true hard counter to SR remains a knife in the face. This is why Mages don't rule the world.
 
Spells domain doesn't give lesser dispel as a lvl 1 spell doesn't it? I thought blur only blocked lvl 1 spells.
 
THAT BEING SAID, the SR on certain monsters like Nightrisers should be reduced or removed. Why would a nation of Wizards, make their warrior undead slaves, RESISTANT to their magic?

[VanillaPudding]

Evard's has positive changes to it already (lump sum of damage and not small amounts adding up, does not take spellcraft into account for saves, ect) The SR change is a great thing and was needed.

As for the SR on creatures, it's typically in line with their CR and isn't a problem. As stated, take spell penetration if you want to be better at bypassing it. Also, don't forget about the dispel magic changes reducing SR for a time frame as well.

[Howlando]

THAT BEING SAID, the SR on certain monsters like Nightrisers should be reduced or removed. Why would a nation of Wizards, make their warrior undead slaves, RESISTANT to their magic?

You mean it doesn't make sense for the undead prisoner guardians of a bunch of locked up, dangerous wizards to have SR?

[Egon the Monkey]

If you want to be able to dispel/penetrate other spells, take the spell penetration and spell focus abjuration feats. Thats the price you pay for specializing in breaking other mages in PVP. You probably SHOULDN'T be able to beat a lvl 5 spell with generic consumables you can pick up for pocket change.

Why not? I can block Hold Monster with a Prot From [Alignment] potion. I can block Missile Storm with a Shield scroll. Hell, I've got lucky and taken off L4/5 spells with a blast of a Dispel wand before.

The true hard counter to SR remains a knife in the face. This is why Mages don't rule the world.

Actually, SR is more like why they don't. Spell Resistance is a defence that ONLY protects from offensive casters. Spell resistance (the Spell) is a great defence against Spells that's given to classes with decent AB and AC and the means to buff that to be more melee powerful and avoid said knife, *not* to mages who rely generally on spells to deal damage.  

Note that Spell Penetration is the only way other than "powerquest to greater levels than your target" to improve your ability to break SR, and you can't outlevel quest mobs to allow yourself to blast them. If you want to crack AC, you can hold on to AB boosting consumables or use Taunt, Entangling effects, or dispel off AC buffs. If you want to get past HP, boost your damage output, or hit the enemy with CON damage. If you want to get past spell-blocking defences, use Dispel or spam lower level spells to overload Insulation or Spell Mantle. There are temporary ways to deal with other defences, but no way to temporarily enable you to punch through SR when you need it, short of a single L4 Spell (Spell Breach),which is good vs the spell SR but useless vs several mobs with SR. Yes you could fire a AOE Dispel off a wand in the hope of lowering the group's SR, but then it has to get through their SR in the first place (with a CL of 3). Bit of a Catch-22, that.

Aren't there two feats that boost your spell penetration already?

Feats are a limited resource, and Spell Resistance isn't something you encounter often enough to want to burn a feat for a slightly improved chance to get past it, compared to using it on making the character effective or flavourful. So, when you do encounter it, it's frankly a right bastard. Consumables that would boost your effective CL for SR checks by a cost-dependent amount for a couple of rounds would give a mage a chance to slip a barrage of spells past, while remaining pointless for wand spamming as wands would still be low Caster Level. Efu has loads of consumables from Flame Weapon devices to widely available PfX/Insulate potions to let melee PCs deal with caster attacks or not need a buffer. What it's always needed is consumables specifically designed to help out mages in buffing their DCs/bypassing defences where the only other counter is "buff goon to knife them". We've gone some way towards that, but the few that exist are rare and multi use, rather than affordable one-shot things in line with the couple of Haste Pots every melee or ranged PC wants ASAP.

 

Spells domain doesn't give lesser dispel as a lvl 1 spell doesn't it? I thought blur only blocked lvl 1 spells.

Spells Domain gives Lesser Dispel as a L1 spell. Bards get Lesser Dispel as a L1 spell. Spell Immunity by Level is calculated on what level the caster fires it at, not the innate level. For example, Minor Globe of Invulnerability (Immunity all L3 and below spells) will block Fear from a Bard (who casts it at L3) but not from a Sorcerer, who casts it out a L4 Spell Slot. Blur will block a Lesser Dispel cast from a L1 slot from a Bard, but not from a L2 slot by a Cleric. I have no idea if using Meta-magic to shift the spell up a slot would change that.

[Nightshadow]

It doesn't, I've cast empowered magic missiles at folks while they were blurred and it did nothing.

[Drakill Tannan]

What egon said.

In EFU:A, and NWN in general there are tons of ways to empower a warrior-type of character. Buffs, buff potions/consumables, better weapons, items with bonus to their skills/abilities/stats, and of each of thouse there are a thousand options.

Mages don't have it so easy, there are three things they can get: either an offensive spell casting consumable, a permanently equiped +spellslot item, or some buff to WIS/INT/CHA. The first are usually aviable also to warrior kinds, and the second is rather strong and should be kept rare, while the third, unless it's a permanent buff, it's really meh, most of the time.

I would like to see some mage consumables, things that
-Extend the next spell you'll cast
-Give you +3 caster levels for the purpose spell progresion and beating SR for a short time.
-Make certian spell you cast slightly more powerfull

etc.

Hence my earlier sugestion of "additional spell reagents" Overhall i think it would make playing mages more fun, and ofensive mages would be more viable. But i'm likely biassed because in every single RPG i've played i always pick the mage.

[AKMatt]

Wizards already have it easier than every other class.  You can do pretty much everything with a wizard.  They get alchemy, good skills, Bonus metamagic feats every 5 levels, The ability to cast invis and leech XP to high levels, the ability to tank up with spells and rock the melee, the ability to be an offensive powerhouse by blasting away unsuspecting enemies before they have a chance to get defenses up, good skill cross-classing options with their generally high int, customized conjuration system on EfU:A, custom SCRYING if you go divination, counterspelling, etc.

The thing that makes them not utterly overpowered (okay, arguably they still are in some respects) relative to the other classes is that generally you can only do a couple of these things really well, instead of all of them.  If wizards got a free bypass to spell resistance, you wouldn't have to focus on being the best offensive mage with your build to be the best offensive mage.  The people who chose to build around tanking or maximizing lore or scrying people, heck even necromancers, could be just as effective at crushing SR opponents with offensive magic as the people who built specifically to be a powerhouse evoker.

[chezcaliente]

What AKMatt said. Mages are very much specialists. And if they're not, it should be very much a Jack of All Trades, Master of None scenario.

An Evoker should take Spell Penetration feats as they specialise in dealing damage to foes. Allowing mages who specialise in other fields access to the same stuff for free dilutes the expertise of Evokers.

[Divine Intervention]

Very simply put, mages need to prepare.  A warrior is always big, tough and carrying a weapon.  A mage however is really a lot of the time a scrany guy in a robe who can dish out some serious damage when ready.  Mages. Are. Powerful.  Warriors can buff, but a wizard can floor you in a ridiculously short amount of time simply with haste and a barrage of spells.  They do not need loads more things empowering them when they can already destroy entire groups of enemies in seconds.  

On the original thing, changes are awesome.  Long live change.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

Suggestion idea: More drugs! Terran Brandy anyone? DC 19 on ingestion for addiction I believe it was. This example is only a +2, so nothing big, and comes with its side effects if you try to spam it like a consumable along with its addiction risk.
Terran Brandy: A potent alchohol, this magical drink is favored  by heartless spellcasters of all types. This green liquid is distilled  from the essence of dying fey.
   Initial Effect: +2 alchemical bonus to effective caster level for 1d20+20 minutes.
   Secondary Effect: 2 points of temporary Constitution damage.
   Side Effects: None.
   Overdose: If more than one dose is taken in a 8-hour period, the user immediately takes 1 point of temporary Constitution damage.


Of course this is only really viable for ebul types. Just an idea that can be used as inspiration for something custom perhaps ^^

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Suggestion idea: More drugs! Terran Brandy anyone?  
Terran Brandy: A potent alchohol, this magical drink is favored  by heartless spellcasters of all types. This green liquid is distilled  from the essence of dying fey.
   Initial Effect: +2 alchemical bonus to effective caster level for 1d20+20 minutes.
   Secondary Effect: 2 points of temporary Constitution damage.
   Side Effects: None.
   Overdose: If more than one dose is taken in a 8-hour period, the user immediately takes 1 point of temporary Constitution damage.


Of course this is only really viable for ebul types. Just an idea that can be used as inspiration for something custom perhaps ^^

We've a forum for suggestions Crystal, otherwise, I likee