Plant Overharvesting

[putrid_plum]

destroying plants by a PC may infact be IC.  Sorry you cannot grasp that some players might actually do things ICly for a reason not just to spite people as this is an RP server.

[Disco]

We are talking about plants here. Who cares if a few of them dies. If you leave a set of armour on the ground you do not expect it to be there when you get back, why are plants any different?

[Drakill Tannan]

Because they take time and effort to grow. And because "I don't like flowers *fireballs them*" is akin to Pkinling some random PC because "I don't like halflings" and making the player loose hours of work without ripping any enjoyment out of it.

EDIT: You can kill any PC with a good IC reason. Killing plants should get the same criteria. "I hate flowers" is NOT a good reason.

[Letsplayforfun]

This is not Crops & Flowers server. If plants mean so much to you, show it IG and involve others about it.

Put up signs saying 'no trespassing' then investigate ICly who's destroying your gardens. Find who are the alchemist's suppliers. Beat the hell out of people destroying your crops. Pot elves. Collect and donate to Chauntean priests or whoever you pray. Don't tell colony enemies that "plants are sooo useful, i hope no one destroys them". Whatever.

[Barehander]

There's also the fact that the wild is full of plants, IC. If you're so insistent on the fallacy that everything is purely IC, you should go through the same effort to destroy static placeables and those flowers we know are there IC even if they're not represented visually by the game engine. Ymph is full of forest and underbush; if you take the strictly IC route, you should attack static placeables with fireballs just as you would PC-planted herbs. (Obvious, monocultural gardens/farms are an exception to this, of course.) And if you don't do this because it's too much work IC, you might very well choose to destroy something else IC than those few placeables you know to also serve a game purpose.

The point is: it may be IC that you hate plants, and it may be an important tool in advancing the story. That's what matters the most, after all: a story that is enjoyable. However, 9 times out of 10, you can achieve the same story purpose with a few select actions rather than going to unnecessary lengths that cause annoyance to another player. I'd be curious to see what kind of a story requires you to burn down every persistent plant you see, instead of destroying a select few locally and leaving marks and hints of the destruction behind. Maybe even making a forum post about it. If you're the only one who ever finds out you had a good IC reason to do something, that reason is moot: it doesn't advance the story. Similarly, exaggeration may also be IC but if it doesn't affect the course of the story, it's pointless. Staying 100% IC should never be your top priority: facilitating an exciting story/game environment is more important, and it means reflecting on the proper relationship of IC and OOC concerns.

Nobody thinks it can't be IC. But it's not always IC, which is the problem. All it takes is one idiot to ruin the fun for everyone. If you do it right and tastefully, good for you. You're obviously not the target audience of this topic.

I don't even know if there is a real problem, but the attitudes in this topic and the fallacious arguments irk me. My point is:  Don't pretend everything is as black and white as you make it out to be; you know very well it isn't.


To comment on the post above: I disagree with the general philosophy here that everything has to be so damn complex and cool RP. It's important to show effort and dedication when it comes to key points of your character. You do this selectively. Secondary things shouldn't become a chore, and frankly if you spend several hours daily achieving IC goals, I personally think you might want to get other hobbies. I want to log on every now and then and get into the swing of the game without having to stay online for hours. I don't expect anyone else to conform to this view and they're free to make as much of an effort as they want, but I also expect not to have mundane chores forced down my throat when I'm not interested in them. We're not a Crops & Flowers server, by LPFF's concession, so spending your limited game time protecting a garden shouldn't be expected.

There are some pretty hardcore players here, and I know the DM team wants to see memorable IC conflict more than anything. But maybe some players want to casually enjoy aspects of the server that aren't necessarily their primary focus (like herbalism/gardening, which would take all your time if you really got into it). I don't see why that's wrong.

[putrid_plum]

there is a game for you on facebook called farmville, this is very much an IC issue i think it's funny that people feel so passionate about OOCly...  LPFF basically hit the nail on the head people!

[Letsplayforfun]

@Barehander: While i certainly don't enjoy players having their fun spoiled in any way, EFUA is just not a place where you can expect to plant a garden and expect to ripe the fruits of it just by doing nothing more than planting.

It's not about complexity or "cool rp", it's about playing with or against others, not strolling the isle alone, planting, strolling alone, collecting.

This is true for people questing, planting, skinning, praying, whatever. To be blunt: if you enjoy dedicating time to your pc's rp by doing solo stuff, including planting, it's great, but it's not efua's main focus.

Planting spots are rare on purpose: because it creates conflict over them (and because of lag). Hence the replies to this thread: deal with it ICly.

Now certainly people who log on more often have a definite advantage over those who can only spend so much time on the game, but that's the way it is.

[Barehander]

Putrid_plum: You basically missed my entire point, which was that not everyone necessarily wants to spend their time playing farm (the suggested solution to the issue, spending time and effort in protecting your plot).

But LPFF did hit the nail on the head especially with the last post, I agree. I just don't agree with the basic idea, intentionally creating conflict and competition over, well, farms. My personal feeling is that EfU takes this conflict doctrine a bit far sometimes. But the crux of the issue is summarised in LPFF's last paragraph: it's about time, and how much of it you're willing to spend. That's the way it is, but it doesn't necessarily have to be (at least to such extent). But that's an ideological call, I guess, and not the topic here.

I'm not sure where the soloing bit comes in, though, because I'm not necessarily in favor of that. Maybe that's because I don't quite understand what the suggested solutions practically are: people mention teaming up, but what do you mean? The people you team up with are probably people of your own timezone, and even if you managed to cover all time zones I doubt you had a group of players willing to watch over a garden 24/7 or whatever. I have no idea how you could begin to investigate who destroyed your garden and beat up the culprit, because the incident is rarely part of any greater plot. DMs probably have no idea (not to mention the difficulty of catching one on EfU in the first place) and it's not like the random overharvester is making a forum post with hints. I don't even know what effect donating to Chaunteans could have in this context. And what happens if the culprit is Australian or West Coast American? No way an Euro player is ever going to catch him online.

Basically: the default reply seems to be "deal with it IC" but not one of the suggestions seems very viable outside a few specific cases. That is, unless you happen to spend your life online and protecting your garden is the most important focus of your PC.


Anyhow, I disagree with the general ideology and I think I've stated why clearly enough. Just wanted to say LPFF's post is good and spot-on, I just don't draw the same conclusions. I'll leave it at that, I guess!

[Divine Intervention]

I will point out one major reason people will destroy plants IC.  Supply.  If you destroy plants you cut off the supply for alchemy and herbalism.  "Oh those druids are manufacturing potions and bombs from plants? Let's go take out the source".  It's a common tactic.  Or perhaps you are a merchant.  "People want plants for alchemy?  If I destroy a load then I can raise my prices on them and control the market".  It's an IC problem, I suggest people who do it deliberately make it clear they are doing it through a ruins litter post maybe?  And people who are against it should put the work in IG to keep it safe.

[Disco]

Plants are really not that important.

[Cerberus]

I know at least two places you can't get to without being able to cast a druid spell or have an item that is only used by druids and both places you can plant. Both places non-druids couldn't get to without being with a druid. I can also say that I propably know less than half of what's out there so there are probably other places like this...
 
Find them, plant there...
 
P.S., I wonder if Olo's secrete garden is still growing?... :p

[PlayaCharacter]

Do we actually know for sure that this is being done by PCs? Is it not possible that this is a bug?

[DollarPhil]

Here's the thing though. Conflict does not universally equal good or interesting.  When you can strike back at an enemy or plot to be a step ahead, or avoid their attacks, then it's interesting. When you have to rely on total luck, waiting for hours or large amounts of DM help to retaliate, it's dull.
Plant smashing or greedy harvesting, especially near NPCs in wilds camps, is like leaving notes saying 'Anty Trenada blows goats' around the Ziggurat without a DM around. Effectively zero chance of retribution or prevention, hostile action.
Most players aren't going to go to all the trouble of sucking up to NPCs for weeks in the hope of Chauntean Guards or something, they have better things to do. Nor would any player enjoy spending all his time in a cabbage patch with See Invis cast, hoping the unknown vandal is logged in and coming.

[12 Hatch]

I think having this open conflict over the plants is good because it gets more people out and exploring the module.  I know on my wilderness PC I found a ton of new areas I would not otherwise have simply because I was looking for gardens to pilfer.

The plants are just a cool bonus thing for wilderness folks to use to grow their own ingredients.  I tend to agree with Disco's sentiment that it's really not a huge deal.

Growing plants in the wilderness doesn't add to interesting roleplaying.  Neither does stealing someone's.

But fighting over planting spots and catching thieves and breaking their limbs certainly does!  Why not set some traps around your hidden garden just in case?

[Barehander]

Why not set some traps around your hidden garden just in case?

Because, if we are to believe a post on the first page, DMs have prohibited this. And I can't say I'd be happy to walk into a deadly trap that FDed my PC just because I happened to pass through an area unawares with 0 Search. I guess it would be solved with a No Trespassing -sign, though.

I agree with your post, though. As long as the conflict is something you can get into without an unreasonable OOC effort.