Allow Wizards and Sorcs to cast animate dead at level 3

[KRUNTO]

I am in full support of exploding zombies.

[derfo]

there are other necromancy spells besides animate dead, along with summoning themes

[Drakill Tannan]

Necromancy is raising the dead. Despite what dref says, when someone says necromancer you think of a man controling zombies or skeletons.

[Nihm]

there are other necromancy spells besides animate dead, along with summoning themes

Necromancy isn't a very good school where other spells are concerned considering how easy it is to block all of the spells, and how high the fortitude saves of most enemies are.
 
There are no Necromancy summoning themes.  Though it seems the ghosts probably should be unique to necromancers, they are not ; anyone can choose them as far as I know.

[GoblinSapper]

Necromancy is raising the dead. Despite what dref says, when someone says necromancer you think of a man controling zombies or skeletons.

My cleric would disagree. Oh and so does I-
 
Necromancy is the study of life and death, and positive and negative energies. Animation is an application of this art, but not the core of it. All math is not Calc.
 
Until WoTC pussed out in 3rd edition, healing and restoration spells were ALSO necromancy. And the ideaology I follow in game, is that these fields were pioneered by Necromancers, but left largely abandoned in the wake of the animation craze perpetuated by the Man-creature Netherese wizards who didn't understand the true, solemn duty and personal sacrifice of necrosis. Like only an elf would.

[Joe Desu]

I think that arcane magic users should stick to summons other than undead, unless they go for a Palemaster.

It is the realm of the clerics not wizards to mess with death.

[Paha]

I agree. It's fine as it is. It has not been a problem for someone actually putting effort to it to become a necromancer.

Pale Mastery is there to be the different route, and it surely shows it. It's just how it was supposed to be.

[DollarPhil]

Suggestion on the suggestion. Perhaps L4? It would then be the same as in PnP. Accessible without being a high level PC, but clerics still have the edge in actually animating, as they should do. Wizards have the edge in throwing out Neg Rays/Bursts to heal, using Stone Bones, GMW, other stuff, because they're more studious and better at improving creations. Servants of the gods find it easier to break the rules of life and death.

Also, seriously, Nihm? Necromancy's a great school even without Animate, if just for the flexibility in other spells. The spells you lose that are most useful from Divination are Identify and Seeing, which are easy to get pots of. Where it really hurts is if you're paranoid or mage duel a lot, and the lack of Seeing sucks.

I played a Necromancer who never raised one zombie in his entire career. Ray of Enfeeblement is a good snare on PCs that aren't blurred, Casting Fear on a warded and surrounded ally can break the pressure on him. You can definitely break mob Fort saves if you INT buff in quests, but I'd agree that saves on a lot of things are too high, or some have unusual SR or cheesy immunities. A wizard reducing a boss to a paralyzed or gibbering wreck is a chance to shine, not laming a quest.   Fear is great, but the biggest problem isn't NWN balace, but an EfU-specific tendency for a lot of Fear save gear to be about.

[Howlando]

This is an ancient argument, long dead, animated up from the dead.

At any rate, given a fresh slate I'd probably drop animate dead down for arcane casters but it's either impossible or quite complicated to do. The server is absolutely swimming with animate dead loot, and level 9 isn't that difficult to reach.

The spirits theme is also definitely an option for people who want to roleplay being an Evil Necromancer from level 2. And although true that through reagents anyone can select this theme, I am pretty sure the SF Necro and GSF Necro feats improve it rather than the conj spell focuses, so it is clearly best for necromancers.

[DollarPhil]

I just made a wizard with GSF necro and tested my summon point usage before and after taking the Spirit theme. it doesn't appear to make a difference.

[Howlando]

My mistake.

[Barehander]

I don't think the problem is that necromancer wizards aren't strong enough; they probably are. But I can imagine it's disappointing not to get to take full use of the awesome custom animation system.

I have no opinion about the spell level one way or the other, since I haven't played a wizard to that high a level here. But I do think it's somewhat futile to make up for the lack of Animate Dead in other ways, because it's specifically the custom animation of corpses that's the coolest part about being a necromancer.

[Talir]

I don't know about the feasibility of lowering the spell level for animate dead. But I do know that anyone, be it cleric, wizard, sorcerer or bard, that go for an undead related theme and put forward an animation agenda that shines, likely will find themselves in possession of other means towards the same end (or more!).

[The Old Hack]

...Talir, I am not really sure that was what you meant, but the idea of bardic necromancers made me think of a Grateful Dead concert held during the Zombie Apocalypse...

Goblin Sapper: I totally agree, but then I am a cranky old diehard from the time where Gygax set forth that healing was necromancy and that Resurrection was just about the ultimate expression of the necromantic art. *grumble grumble*

[Drakill Tannan]

I don't think the problem is that necromancer wizards aren't strong enough; they probably are. But I can imagine it's disappointing not to get to take full use of the awesome custom animation system.

That's another thing. The animating sistem is among the coolest things on EFU:A, i made a necromancer to animate, not to summon, because summoning-wise there are more intresting themes. The ones you can get throguh the wizardy tome quest,for instance.

Negative energy spells are not very good on most quests, either there are too many enemies or their saves are too storng.

• Ray of enfeeblement is usefull only against strong enemies, wich usually have a high Fort, thus you have to throw 2 or 3 before it does something. Or 5 or 6 on the boss.
• Scare is a joke
• Ghoul touch is rather risky but usually worth it if you can land it on tough enemies, yet... yes! you guessed right, Fort save, you'll have to use it 2 or 3 times before it does something.
• Death armor is only usefull on potions
• Vampiric touch is plain too weak and risky to be of any use
• Contagion is a worse joke than scare
• Enveration is only worth using on bosses, it's risky and even if it hits, -1 saves and AB from rolling a 1 is no big deal, so usually not worth it, plus it's a fort save.

This leaves us with

• Negative energy ray as usefull as magic missile but limited, since undead enemies won't be harmed, OR used to heal animates, but we're talking about animation here.
• Negative energy burst is actually pretty good by giving all enemies -1 AB and damage + a bit of damage, but it is far from being impresive, usualy you'd rather throw a fireball: enemies last half the time and therefore inflict more damage, but it has it's uses.
• Fear is good if your party is protected, because honestly it can only work saving the asses of your party.

That's 3 usable spells on quests. I tried to make a non-evil neromancer that only used neagtive energy once, it's not nice.

Maybe if scare was uncapped and the general fortitude of MNPCs lowered you'd be right, else you're left with 3 spells that might do something, sometimes.