EfU:A, The Missing manual

[Egon the Monkey]

Yes, agreeing with Nihm. Things like what  Crimson Brew does, what Familiars do, what Wildshapes there are should  be kept secret! But spell changes, ...shouldn't

Paraphrased a bit on the end, but these are the same thing. Spell  changes, new spells (prot from Law, Magic Circle from law), and the  effects of unique powers are the same level of mechanical knowledge. In  it's most obvious example, the effect of a Potion of Duty and the   effect of Prot vs Chaos are the same. it's unfair to any Player to have to test items just to see what they do, when on their future PCs they will know anyway.

Really you have to ask "Does this knowledge enable or hamper RP and/or  gameplay". Knowing how to make alchemist's fire for example, hampers RP  as you don't end up "researching" it or trading recipes.
On the other  hand, a new player and a veteran both get Crimson Brews in a  "Post-Invasion Goody Bag". The old hand quickslots them and rubs his hands with glee. The new guy has  no idea what they do, even on a max lore max spellcraft wizard. So he  wastes a valuable potion figuring it out. Now, all his future PCs know  what this does.

Another example. When I was new to the server I genuinely thought Rotten Fruit was super-cheap Choking Dust and grabbed stacks off the seller before I realised I was wrong. The flipside of that is that people not knowing how awesome Flash Powder or Laughing Gas are won't use these interesting weapons, thinking them overpriced Choking Dust.

Finally, I know what most of the familiars'  stats are and what spells they have at low level, because when Nut changed them I made a load of new mages and druids and had a look. Also, I pay attention to what other PC's ones do. This a is a classic example of secret knowledge that hurts new players. One didn't realise the Fire Mephit was an imp that was basically Kill on Sight to a lot of PCs until I shouted at him and eventually attacked it. Since familiars can play so many roles, turned out he liked the idea of a parrot that would buff his CHA rather than the more shooty Imp. If players don't like a familiar's role they won't use it. Making their spells and feats obvious lets players choose one they'll want to have out, and will be seen in action.
Add to that the inevitable chat about potion effects, familiar stats etc through IRC, tells, talking to other players on facebook, the phone or in the case of say Eq and eliff, yelling "Hey bro look what this thing do!", and FOIG rapidly means Find Out In Gossip. Heck, I know about the poisoning drinks with Poison, the Curse system and half of the things I posted originally in here off other players OOC.

[Meldread]

^ What Egon said.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Well said Egon.

If something really is inappropriate knowledge for the player base I think it would be best if it was left to a DM to step in and say so.

[AceOfSpadesX]

This is a great idea, but some things should stay FOIG.  People don't need to know that druids can app for Ancient Dire Dragon form and Dire Tarrasque Animal companions ...

Why not? So that new players won't know that having more powerful shapes is even a possibility?

[Barehander]

Add to that the inevitable chat about potion effects, familiar stats etc through IRC, tells, talking to other players on facebook, the phone or in the case of say Eq and eliff, yelling "Hey bro look what this thing do!", and FOIG rapidly means Find Out In Gossip. Heck, I know about the poisoning drinks with Poison, the Curse system and half of the things I posted originally in here off other players OOC.

I agree with your post 100% but I wanted to highlight this part especially. Because it's not as if these things remain a secret, an interesting mystery to solve IC. (Bloodmage ritual or crafting recipes, on the other hand, can be such mysteries.) This stuff is shared anyway, in private channels. That's the biggest double-standard here. You need to be part of a clique or be bold enough to step forward and ask, which leaves a lot of people in the dark.

If something is such that you can find from other players anyway (say, the 10-20 most experienced EfU players), and that something isn't strictly IC knowledge, it's probably best for everyone to share it publically.

But anyway, this is going a bit off-topic. All this should be eventually combined with the mechanical changes. If you guys list all the changes, I'm happy to help with putting it into a final forum format.

If you know what familiars and animal companions do, Egon, can you write simple descriptions? IMO, the best format would be "The sheep is a dumb animal with low AB and AC, but its fluffy wool makes for great insulation against cold. Mages often enchant its stupid, gleamy eyes with Magic Missile, though more experienced arcanists add a variety of other powers." Basically, what their role is in a party and what they can do right away (like levels 1-4).

[Egon the Monkey]

If you know what familiars and animal  companions do, Egon, can you write simple descriptions?

I fear I'm pushing it enough just trying to level the playing field  between newbies and old timers just with what potions and grenadelikes  do.

An analogy I've used before to explain this is "Familiars in NWN  are as much a mechanics decision as picking a weapon to Specialise in  on a Fighter. You wouldn't change a weapon's attributes and say 'FOIG  what it does'". However, recently Nut did exactly this, by way of a  change to staves that radically changes their use, and leaving the effect to be a surprise until the info spread. There's clearly no  opposition to making the info on that public though, in fact people want  to see it. Why the feeling that  knowledge of familiar stats would lead to Hideous Powerbuilds, I'll never know. We have  Rapiers available, and Rogues still choose to use Shortswords. Not  every Wizard is a 18 int 18 Con 6 str gnome, 20 STR Half-orc Fighters  are the exception not the rule. Most players can be trusted not to be lame and for example have a LG wizard with a Skull because they like using [spoiler buff I'm not allowed to say].  Familiars are so varied they're not  really a better/worse case anyway, it's whatever complements the PC or  is most fun to use.

Obscuring the stats is no defence against people finding out even without talking to others. It took me 15 min to roll up a half dozen wizards and see what each familiar did for the first 2 levels. While I was there I saw numerous other PCs appear, summon a familiar, then vanish, too. If I'd wanted to I could have found them all out for what they do at L7 within a day, using 1 old PC. I wasn't trying to make a server ruling crushbot, I was just curious. A powergamer would however do the same sort of thing to get the "optimal" familiar. Better to have possibly inaccurate information out than to say "we'll hide it until we're sure the familiars are done". Nobody sensible will whinge about info being out of date as opposed to totally absent. And if it's players posting it, it's not DM responsibility if it's not right, so they can't ruin your day complaining about it.

As for the formatting, I dunno how to improve it beyond when it's done, re-posting it into a new thread where I can have each section as a new post, and have an index post linking to them all.

[SkillFocuspwn]

The reason, imo, for the obscuration of Familiars is quite simply that IG, as a level 2 Wizard, the DMs want you to pick them completely based upon what would make the most IC sense to your character; and while I do agree, those players who know what each of them do through rigorous testing do get better knowledge, I do not believe that knowledge is at all important; I have no idea what the familiars do and don't think it will ever effect my ability to EfU!

Equally, mystery is good; finding a mysterious brew only known on Ymph and quickly consulting a compendium to find out its stats ruins the point in the DMs making these potions (I am pretty certain they did not do it to give the PCs more crushing power). Yes, people will find out and people who don't will be worse off, but this is not game-breaking knowledge!

I have never bothered to seek out the info behind Crimson Brews despite owning them IG simply because, you get information within its description and enough to know when it's useful; it does not leave you wondering what this random red drink is, but you do not need a mechanics exact knowledge to know when to need it.

Equally, a Druid can just find out at level 5/8 what it can turn into and ask a DM if there are any app forms appropriate for their Badger Gnome; yes, knowing the exact stats of them would make it easier on newer players and take away a supposed "edge" that the more experienced players seem to have so imposingly; but the DMs do not put out full monster stats and quest maps with traps and spawns shown to lower this balance; while this would reduce the gap, because EfU is based upon mystery and yes, the mystery of what this potion does or what turning into a batwizard does is just as exciting as what does that giant lever made of bone do?

So keep things hidden, obscure without making completely hidden and keep the EfU Mystery and flavour separate from the NWN mechanics! That's what I say.

[Drakill Tannan]

A wizard that acts as a spy would want a familiar that stealths well. An evoker militant one would want something that fights with teeth and claw and be good at it, stats are important to determine the attitude of the familiar so that it fits the wizard/sorcerer. If things were as evident as if choosing in between a rat and a hellhound, then it would be fine, but it's not.

Mechanical knowledge about what a certian potion does, should be added in a wiki. Unless the item in question is specifically meant to be enigmatic, there is no real diference from the crimison brew and the barbskin potion: they are both potions, why is one known by all and the other isn't? The elixer if improvement is in it's description said to be very misterious and rare, makes sence it's effects are kept hidden, but flash powder and laughing gas are not.

Also, a wikia would be about mechanical knowledge, and maybe vague world information, ther eis a diference between "To become a bloodmage talk to The NPC at the stargazer village who gives you a quest, this quest drops this item called ancient dragon tooth, collect 3 of these, then collect 52 orc teeth... blah blah blah" to "To become a bloodmage a PC has to find the instuctions for the bloodmage ritual, wich requires the collection of certian items throughout the gameworld and the creation of specifical conditions for it to take place, this is IC knowledge that should not be discussed OOC."

Maybe if the Wikia was an extension of the foruns, and only was edditable by a few people given permision by the DMs, for example, no LtS telling us what the elixer of improivement does, but Egon could edit freely, etc.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

As to discovering the purpose of potions...

What happened to asking someone ICly?

[IxTheSpeedy]

Nice work Egon.

[The Crimson Magician]

Yeah, it really did need some updating =)

[Egon the Monkey]

The reason, imo, for the obscuration of Familiars is quite simply that IG, as a level 2 Wizard, the DMs want you to pick them completely based upon what would make the most IC sense to your character

With the exception of ooze nuts taking the Ooze, necromancers taking the skull etc, there's no great IC reasoning behind choosing one of the more normal familiars over another. On the other hand picking the Raven because it has useful skills that complement your treasure hunter's abilities, or the Parrot as an exotic creature good to aid your diplomacy because you have Persuade, makes IC sense and is useful. RP and character effectiveness are not mutually exclusive, in fact they are interlinked.

A familiar that looks pretty but doesn't do anything that useful to your character won't be used much and so won't generate RP. On the other hand, one of my wizards' familiars was pretty much his right hand. Casting detect spells to secure rooms, firing offence spells when he was invisible, opening a locked door during a DM quest, picking fights with a halfling etc. People still remember that familiar as much as they did the PC. Other mages of mine have used a trap disabling familiar as a real part of the team, sending them ahead to scout out areas and clear them when a rogue wasn't available, or summoned up their familiar to Taunt monsters on quests. Both of those PCs' familiars were selected on the basis that the mechanical benefits would lead to them being used and show off, not just summoned up to cast a buff then forgotten about.

[Pup]

I'm sorry to anyone who disagrees, but familiar abilities should be public.  At least at the lowest levels.  The arguments for and against this are there, and has Egon has pointed out, you can figure it out OOCly anyways.  Why make new players feel more left out than they already are...

[Egon the Monkey]

*bump* More suggestions on stuff I should include please.

[Listen in Silence]

Drowning system for underwater escapades.