Electric Traps-

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Rewording post:

Electric traps tend to do godly damage, and are not fun. Minor are okay, moderate, ~Maybe~ but strong and deadly are going to fugue even level 8 fighters at full hp. These are not fun, and I do not believe they have any place on a scripted quest.

[DollarPhil]

Agreed. The problem's twofold. One, that they are as TNVW says, pretty much indstadeath. Even the minors out damage most other traps. Two, that they have a ridiculous range, meaning it's very easy to die from someone else's mistake.

[Caddies]

Anyone with moderate Search can detect them and half the damage can be nullified completely with PfElements.

Not a fan of traps personally but these are fine and won't be removed.

[BrittanyPanthas]

I don't understand how actually needing a rogue to detect traps which are actually extremely deadly is a bad thing?

And perhaps 'need' is too strong a word, given that I've seen far too many classes able to disable all traps out there.  The only thing rogues seem to be specialized in relating to traps is recovery and speedier detection, and recovering half-way decent traps only with an ungodly number of skill modifiers, feats and/or items.

Dangerous quests should need a party with a wider variety of skills than simply buffing and hacking everything to death.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I am not denying the need for wider variety.

But ONE MISTAKE and you can land an entire party in the fugue. This is not fun, nor is it conducive to a positive experience. I am all for deadly gas traps which can sap Constitution down to the 3, I am all for strong fire traps which can be deadly to ONE person.

But a trap that delivers 10d10 electric dmg to everyone within a certain range is not fun or really desireable.

[DollarPhil]

Caddies, you're assuming that:[LIST=1]

• Everyone has PfEle.
• They are constantly refreshing it if it burns out.
• Or, they are metagaming the trap and chugging a large, expensive insulation for no good IC reason.

Thomas nails it. A trap that is triggered and pisses off an entire party is good (gas trap) They'll learn to stay away from the charging idiot.  A trap that's likely death to a single PC and on a placeable is fine. It was your choice to kick the chest rather than let the scout handle it. However, it needs to be reasonable.  "whoops my summon ran ahead we're all in the Fugue Plane now" is not, and that's Lightning Traps to a T.

IMO, to make traps more of a problem, have more of them, not instadeath ones. A field of Sonic Traps and multiple flavours of Gas Traps would be a horrible thing to charge across and well worth letting someone disarm,  but tripping one by mistake would not be TPK. Deadly Lightning traps are up there with Bodak Stealth Rogues for WTFdeath. As a side note, please don't take that as a suggestion for bodak stealth rogues.

Lightning traps though... ugh. I have had PCs killed by them when:[LIST=1]

• They've seen the trap.
• They had ran back out of the way to the rear of the party.
• They were shouting "Stay there! There's a huge tr...*BZZZZT!* O hai, Kelemvor"

[Paha]

Decisions of not having protection are IC, the lack of possible supplies for them is also IC problem and if you have someone who can study the trap you don't need to metagame chuggin that large potion.

The thing is that people rush ahead constantly. It's more natural and fun for many but as has been said, it's roleplaying that attempts to achieve thinking enemies, scenarios and stories, and in these cases you will just run into trashy stuff that's better and more dangerous than you in general are. Do remember in setting-wide level, none of us is immortal or that badass. There is always something more dangerous out there. Being in enemy tribes camp, in dangerous tomb or anything from between, you can fully use basic sense and know that traps or other variety of dangers are fully possible.

Don't assume you know anything, you're already unconsciously metagaming when you assume there would never be such danger. Sometimes it's just well worth seeking all possible help from different variety and be ready. If you make such dire IC mistakes as dancing over traps carelessly because the signs of danger have not gone into your head, it's well in place to get killed sometimes. There is no sense of achievement if people have to be walked through with hands held together everytime.

[DollarPhil]

If you make such dire IC mistakes as dancing over traps carelessly because the signs of danger have not gone into your head, it's well in place to get killed sometimes.

Exactly. You make a choice, you face it. OK.  However, Lightning traps kill you, your buddy, your buddy's dog and your buddy's dog's tennis partner. This is why they suck, they are TPK in a box.

 On a similar note, on the end part of Tower of Mercy I have actually hostiled people with the keys and been ready to subdue them rather than let them open the Door of Doom. It is just frustrating when someone else's mistake kills your PC. Compared to lots of dangerous traps you're aware of and fall back from after the first one you didn't see blows away a chunk of your HP. On the other hand an unexpected Lightning Trap you don't detect in time is a literal bolt from the blue. It's not always possible to get someone to scout ahead. That should indeed make a quest significantly harder, but not "why are we all dead" hard. Stuff that can wear a careless party down is more fun and challenging than "have X or die".

[Nightshadow]

This trap is extremely deadly, I would be in favor of it being put down in damage, at least, though it seems it will stay as is. And as to what DollarPhil said about subduing folk, I would personally full loot the prick who was an idiot about a trap I called out and was in the process of disarming as he steps over it and kills himself and probably half the group (supposing I survive... I probably would, thanks to my high reflex).

[SilentSouth]

Don't you think it encourages people to be more prepared and work as a team though.
It allows everyone to pace themselves and take it slowly giving time for talk during a quest, most people i have quested with don't say a thing, it makes it tactical and more realistic cause you are acctually worries about stepping on the traps and so you should be.

[DollarPhil]

You could get the same effect with a number of dangerous but not 1-shot kill traps that aren't removed after firing. These would  take more time to disarm and be a good break for RP as you point out, and not have the "ragequit factor" of Lightning Traps.

Slow traps, Gas Traps and any with stuns are particularly good at making a party stop rushing by making the advance dangerous. You'd need a proper trap handler to deal with them, they'd be dangerous to fight around, (try fighting the dog on Bilby's in the middle of the traps) but not TPK-bait. Also, large numbers of recoverable traps on high level quests would promote rogue PCs recovering and re-using traps. I played a PC who used traps whenever he could, and it gets hard unless you spam Jergals and Vrazdn.

Bear in mind the Minor Lightning Traps start at 8d6  electric, DC 17. The Average Trap is 15d6 dmg, 22 DC, which is the same as being hit by an Empowered Lightning Bolt from a buffed L10 Evoker. That's an average 50 damage, maximum 90. The Strong one is DC 26 20d6 dmg. Even the most powerbuilt of halfling rogues is going to have trouble ducking that one, but then that's not the point. The point is that it'll fry the low HP PC who's carefully hanging back, if not the frontliner who rushed in and stepped on it. Notice how nobody complains about the Strong/Deadly Acid Blob, Negative and Cold traps on various quests, as they're a vicious threat, but only to the rusher. One of the worst deaths you can get on EfU is a combat move or bump of another PC onto a trap that kills you.

[Divine Intervention]

Totally in favour of having more of the other traps rather than one type which will instakill unless you fufill specific requirements.  Everyone says you need reasons to take rogues on quests.  We have reasons, freakin awesome sneak attacks, the ability to scout and passing checks.  It shouldn't be necessary to need a very particular set of abilities to do a quest, doesn't that just limit RP more?

[Drakill Tannan]

Check out how my argument actually makes them get removed.
A rogue can recover them then use them for PvP.

[Caddies]

No they can't.

[athousandyearsofpain]

I've never seen a TPK from these traps, in fact I don't think I've ever seen someone die to them on a scripted quest.
It is as Caddies says.. Protection from elements and you will barely notice you stepped on it.

Removing them because some people got unlucky on a single occassion and died is stupid. I can think of a million things that you could get unlucky and die to that would need to be removed too if anything that "COULD" cause a TPK has to be removed.